JY: Welcome to GearTalk, a podcast on biblical theology. Today we are playing an interview originally recorded on November 17th, 2023 in San Antonio, Texas. This interview features four men from three continents, talking about Luke’s not-so-subtle use of Isaiah when he recorded the story of Paul in the book of Acts. This interview was recorded in a hotel lobby, so there will be some background noise. Welcome to GearTalk.

TK: It is me and Jason and Andrew Malone and Joseph Byamukama, and we have three continents represented here, which is the first for us, Jason. It is a joy. I love it. All right, so maybe we’ll start with Andrew because we’re not going to hear as much from him, so you can grab one of these microphones, Andrew, and just tell us briefly where you’re from and how we ended up at this spot with you at this table.

AM: I teach at Ridley College in Melbourne, Australia. I’m very grateful to have discovered, even with a Christian upbringing and growing up in the church literally twice on Sundays, that there’s a storyline to the Bible and that there’s a way of taking the individual stories and fitting them into an overarching meta-narrative, which is the big word that we use, and I’ve been completely stunned by the fact that they’re not just random stories to take, to use, and to squeeze some moral out of each Sunday, but there’s actually a bigger story arc and that every part of the Bible fits into that big story arc.

JD: Amen. Amen.

TK: That’s really, that’s really good. So, Joseph, I went to a paper, so we’re at the Evangelical Theological Society meetings in San Antonio, went to a paper, met Andrew there at the paper. Imagine there’s a big magazine with all these papers; you look at topics you’re interested in, and Jason was somewhere else, so he didn’t go to this paper, and afterwards I said, “Jason, I went to the best paper today, we’ve got to interview this guy.” But before you introduce yourself, I just want to say we’re sitting in our hotel; actually there’s a sign right next to us that says waffle line. This is where people get breakfast, so you can hear background noise, maybe people talking later, things like that, so if you can excuse all of that and just say, this is going to be really rich. We have two Isaiah scholars here who, it is going to be really great to walk through Isaiah’s connection to the book of Acts. So Joseph, before we talk about the paper, can you introduce yourself and help us know where, like, how did you end up going to school in Australia, but you’re not from Australia, are you?

JB: No, I’m not. I come from Kampala, Uganda, the land that flows with milk and honey, and that’s where I do my ministry, that’s where I was born. We do, you know, theological resources, church planting and pastoral training, as well as we try to equip our people to know what they believe and how they can witness to their neighbors. But I go to Ridley College in Melbourne because of, well, a supervisor that I wanted to study under. I was looking for a school where I could do my doctorate while not being uprooted from my context back home. But sometimes it’s easy to train when you train away from your context, it’s easy to forget what sort of questions people are asking on the ground. I had been three years in the US and I did not want to spend three or more years away from Uganda, and so Ridley College came in quite handy, and the two supervisors that I have are quite great to walk with as well, one of them of course at the table.

Okay, so we have something unique here: two PhD students with their doctoral fathers, sitting next to them, right here, so me and Jason and you and Andrew. All right, are you married? Do you have children?

JB: I am, I am married to a lovely, lovely lady Daphne. I’m combined with two, two kids, one mixed two years in John Abbasa, and the other mixed five years in March. Abbasa was born in the US. Abbasa is a Ugandan, but quite, quite growing up fast. I was telling my wife, I don’t know what sort of words he will be speaking to me when I return. He might be welcoming me with a full sentence, but I’m looking forward to that.

JD: Well, I’ll just jump in and say, I am thrilled as one who has been so blessed by seeing God’s work on your continent in Africa. Indeed, my time has been spent principally in Ethiopia, which is neighbors with your country, and I’m just thrilled that God in his pleasure would be raising up yet one more African brother who can serve, serve the people in the part of the world where Christianity is growing at the fastest pace, and oh my, they need faithful teachers, because there’s so many teachers who are not faithful. So I just praise God. Already in our interactions, my soul has been edified, and Jesus has been magnified, and today we get to focus on the chapter in Acts that comes directly after the celebration of God bringing the gospel to Africa. So we have the Ethiopian eunuch who’s actually not Ethiopian, by that I mean not modern day Ethiopian. He’s a Black African. This is the Greek term that was applied to, in the Old Testament, Cush, which is simply native Black Africa, and the very location where God already in the Garden of Eden had chosen to bring the waters of life, one of the key terminus locations for the rivers that flowed out of the Garden of Eden, saying that God had already set up, that he would, as the people would fill the earth, multiply and subdue it. There was a vision of God to bring his people to the land, in fact almost the exact location of where those waters are flowing to the headwaters of the Nile is where you’re at. So it is just a joy for me to meet one more African brother who cherishes Christ. I’ve met so many, and I’m eager for our conversation today about Acts chapter 9 and the call of the one who would become the apostle Paul, but that’s not where he started. He started as Saul, and what you have seen in the biblical text about light and darkness, about blindness and sight is exciting. And we want our hearers to receive it because we think their souls will be edified. And once again, they’re going to see that our awesome God who has spoken has been working out all of Scripture so that it’s tightly interwoven, that he’s doing it in but one more way now in Acts 9:1–19, because wouldn’t you know it? We have a major portion of Scripture that is using the Old Testament. So we’re going to start. Describe for us what’s happening in Acts 9, just in a basic way, and then clarify for us where we’re going to go in the Old Testament and why.

JB: Yeah. So I begin the paper by speaking about how I. Howard Marshall would find that there is less contact with the Old Testament in Saul’s, you know, Saul’s conversion account, depending on how you see it, than might be expected. Now my sort of like paper pushes slightly a bit, you know, against that, saying that actually if read in light of the Old Testament, especially texts like Isaiah 42, the call or conversion of Saul does begin to identify him with Isaiah’s servant of the Lord in the book of Isaiah.

TK: Let me jump in, right here. So what we have here though is someone who loves God’s Word, who’s reading a commentator. Yeah. And the commentator makes a comment and says, “I don’t think there’s very much connection between Acts 9 and the Old Testament.”

JB: Yes.

JD: In a book that is known to be very grounded in Old Testament texts. But I. Howard Marshall is saying, well, this is different.

JB: Yes.

JD: There’s not much interaction with the Old Testament, and so that makes even Acts 9 stand out, and you’re saying, “Yeah, wait a second. I actually think the Old Testament is even providing a template for how Luke decides to describe Paul’s conversion.”

JB: Yes.

I’m thinking that what Luke is doing, in as much as he’s writing history, I think he’s writing it theologically. And in a sense, he’s saying that the promises of God in the Old Testament have been fulfilled in our midst and before our very own eyes. And so in a sense, he’s not just writing information. He’s actually teaching in that sense through what he writes, the historical events, the historical Acts, but the way he weaves them and he narrates them, I think, is, you know, after the pattern of the Old Testament and what God promised to do, having now been fulfilled in Christ and fulfilled through the work of the Spirit and the work of the servant of the Lord, the apostles and the church at large. And Acts 9, I think, continues that sort of idea that Luke is communicating.

JD: That’s beautiful. I mean, we have in the Gospel of, I mean, in the book of Acts, historical narrative, but as history, it’s always written from a perspective. And so God as the ultimate author is leading Luke to write the account in ways that are alluding to, that are echoing texts, that those, especially one key text, that those who are familiar with the story, familiar with the Scripture, as they see this depiction, should be awakened to say, “Oh my, this was already predicted, this, this portrayal was already given to us in the Old Testament.” And now we’re seeing it replayed in the life of Saul.

JB: Yes.

JD: So I want, yeah, I’m eager for you to unpack that a little bit more, describing maybe what’s happening in Acts 9 and then allow that to push you back and say, what allusions are you seeing in the Old Testament, specifically in the book of Isaiah, that Luke appears to be intentionally wanting his readers to draw on?

JB: Yeah, so there are quite probably seven, and there might be more as well, connections that I see in Acts 9:1-19, and Isaiah, especially Isaiah 42, but the idea of the Lord who chooses his servant for a task, for a mission in Acts 9. So we read in Acts 9:15, where Ananias, of course, has been sent to Saul. And he says, well, I’ve heard, Ananias says, “I’ve heard what this man has done to those who call upon your name. How can I even go?” And Jesus says, “No, you must go, for he is a chosen vessel to me.”

And that sort of phrase of the Lord who chooses a vessel or a servant for himself is not a new sort of language. And it has connections to the Old Testament too, you know, many Isaiah texts, but one of them being Isaiah 42, verse 1, where Yahweh says, “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen.” And of course, even that sort of introduction of the servant with the “behold” language is what we, as well, find in Acts 9:11, “Behold, he is a chosen vessel to me.” And so Ananias is, in that sense, led to recognize that there is someone Jesus has chosen for a task that he will give now.

TK: And this is right after, so leading up to this, Paul has been on the road to Damascus, to persecute, bring Christians back to Jerusalem, and a light from heaven comes. And now he’s in the city waiting.

JB: Yes, he is in the city waiting.

JD: And he’s blind.

TK: And he’s blind.

JB: So he’s blinded on the road as he heads to Damascus. And the text says that there he was determined to bind, you know, those of the Way or those who belong to the Way and bring them to Jerusalem into prisons, which is sort of like a reversal of Isaiah 42, verse 7, where the servant is supposed to be leading out of prison those who are bound. In Acts 9, what you have is Paul binding God’s people into prison.

JD: It’s sort of like a dramatic irony, if I might put it that way. But it’s on that road that he’s confronted and, ironically, he thinks that he is honoring God. Yes. But when we read in light of Isaiah 9, he’s actually doing the very opposite of what the servant is supposed to be doing.

JB: Yes, because that’s the other thing. So even his blindness is an irony in that the task that he’s supposed to be carrying out or the call or the mission as Jesus’s servant is to open the eyes of the blind. And we see that explicitly stated in Acts 26, verses 14 to 16, where Jesus appears and says, “I have appeared to you and appointed you, chosen you for myself that you may open the eyes of the blind.” But in Acts 9, what we see is sort of like the opposite. He is blind. In fact, the text says when he tried to open his eyes, he could see nothing or something.

TK: So let me ask both of you men, do you, if I’m reading something and it seems opposite with this, did this give you a clue? Or Jason, does it give you a clue when you’re reading things like this? Like this seems strange. It’s not what I thought God’s people were supposed to do, like this sort of irony thing. Do you think it appears often?

JD: I imagine that it does appear often, but I have to say that already in my conversation with Joseph here, he has helped me see something that now seems so clear that I’ve missed, and I. Howard Marshall, missed, right? That God has helped you recognize through irony. What we’re expecting is a normal pattern, and maybe if the normal pattern was present, I would have even seen it, but the irony, the reversal, I’ve missed the connection. But now what we’re seeing is you have, as we’re going to go back to Isaiah 42 more clearly, but in Isaiah 42, this servant person is opening blind eyes. And now the irony is that Saul himself is blind. He’s trying to open his eyes, but he can see nothing. But pretty soon, what’s going to happen is the true servant, meaning Christ, is going to open his eyes, and then he’ll be sent on a mission to open up more eyes.

JB: Yes, right. And even that language of when Ananias, on the way, when he meets Saul in Acts 9:17, he says Jesus has—the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the way on which he traveled has sent me so that you may receive sight. That language of restoration of sight is in Isaiah 42:18 as well. It’s the same word, and it’s just a rare word in the New Testament, but in Isaiah 42, Yahweh, in a sense, wills the opening of the eyes of the blind and the opening of the ears that they might hear. And of course, that’s when he immediately says, “But who is blind like my servant and who is blind like the one, my messenger, the one that I’ve sent.” And so, yes, there is that sense in which the servant par excellence, the Lord in the context of Acts 9, Jesus, opened Saul’s eyes before he could send him out to open the eyes of the blind and to the Gentiles and to Israel as such.

JD: Are there any more allusions that you want to draw our attention to?

JB: Yeah, I would. One of those is the spirit that is put on Saul. So in Isaiah 42, verse 1, the chosen servant received the spirit from the Lord, right? “Behold, my servant whom I have chosen in whom my soul is pleased; on him I have put my spirit.” And in Acts 9 as well, we see that relationship between Christ and the spirit, but him being able to send the spirit on to Saul as such.

TK: So right in that event.

JB: Yeah, right in that very event. And of course, the reason why he puts the spirit on him is that he might go to the nations. The idea of mission to the Gentiles, mission to the nations, is prevalent in Isaiah 42:1. Isaiah 42, chapter 1, I mean, verse 1, verse 4, verse 6 and 7 as well, and 8 actually, where there is a correlation between the servant in the nation and the name of the Lord being magnified. Now in Acts 9:2, Jesus puts his spirit, and all the spirit of Jesus in Acts 16:7. And then sends him to the nations, of course, to open the eyes of the blind. But the way he phrases that in verse 15 of chapter 9 is that “he will bear my name before the Gentiles and the kings and the children of Israel.” So that, in a sense, the mission of the servant, so in Acts 9 and the servant in Isaiah 42, brings about the magnification or the glorification of the name of Yahweh, which is unique as a source of salvation to the peoples.

JD: Wonderful.

TK: So I’m thinking, yeah, this is, it is really amazing. Can you talk a little bit—so we’ve gone through—can we just clearly, you had 7 before we go to Isaiah 42, can you just briefly give us 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7?

JD: Yeah, the key allusion.

JB: So 1, the Lord choosing his servant, 2, the Lord putting his spirit on his servant, and we’re going to see these in both, yes, in both texts, 3, the Lord sending his chosen and spirit-filled servant to the nations. And 4, of course, so the mission to the nations, the name of the Lord among the nations, would be another allusion. The 5, I think, is the opening of the eyes, the Lord opening the eyes of his servant that he may be able to see. 6, there would be what some might call theophanies or Christophanies, where in Isaiah the Lord promises to appear in light, you know, to confront those who are enemies to his salvation plan, to lead the blind on the way of which they do not know, turn their darkness into light, and make straight their crooked path. So that’s both divine warrior theophany in Isaiah.

TK: So can you explain, because we don’t use the word theophany? Yeah, so what is that?

JB: That would be God appearing to his people in unique ways. In the Old Testament, you could think of his appearance to Abraham, his appearance to Moses, you know, in the burning bush, you could think of his appearance to Jacob as well, his appearance to Solomon as well. So those unique encounters between the divine and the chosen person would be what theophany would be, or appearings, if I might put it that way. Which in the New Testament, especially in Acts, takes on a Christ-centered aspect, so to speak. It is Christ, the resurrected Christ, who now appears to his servants. He appears to Saul on the road to Damascus. He appears to Saul in Acts 18 in Corinth. When we read Acts 22, we see that he actually as well appears to Saul in the temple; that’s another sort of encounter, and so that sort of appearance.

TK: So “he will lead you in paths that in straight paths” is Isaiah. Yes, finish the connection. Yeah, so the seventh, the fact that Yahweh would promise, or the Lord would promise to appear, lead his servant in the language of leading, as we’re provided in Acts 9, 9:8, I think, where Saul himself is led. In Acts 9:6, Jesus says, “Rise up and enter the city, and it will be told to you what it is necessary for you to do,” right? And immediately we are told that Saul is led by hand into Damascus. That language of being led at the Lord’s instructions to where he desires you to be. Which, of course, also signifies a start of a Lord-servant relationship. In Isaiah, it did, and in Acts, it does, in that with Saul recognizing that the one who has appeared to him is Lord, he now identifies himself as the servant.

And so you read Saul’s, Saul’s led us. Of course, led us. He keeps saying the bond servant of Christ, you know, so the servant of Christ, and he says, “Let them who would consider us as the servants of Christ.” And so that sort of Lord-servant relationship, I think, is quite integral, both to Acts 9, but also to Isaiah. Well, Isaiah’s servant songs in that sense, if I might put it that way. But the light, you know, and the darkness idea, you know, is as we’re signifying the transformation, what transformation, at least that’s what Erasmus, as Desiderius Erasmus would say, that Saul’s, Saul saw nothing, but his inner eyes, spiritual eyes, were beginning to be opened and transformed. So that, in a sense, even though he has, he’s blinded outwardly, that signifies an inward enlightenment, enlightenment that begins to happen.

JD: So God in Acts 9 takes Paul on almost a parabolic journey. He makes Paul physically blind in order to help him recognize his own spiritual lack of sight. And in leading the physically blind Paul, God is ultimately leading a spiritually blind man to see light. And the very one that he encountered on the road to Damascus, this glorious Lord, is pursuing him that he might become this glorious Lord’s servant.

JB: Yes.

JD: And through Ananias, God opens not only the physically blind eyes of Paul, but in the process, he gets awakened to see, to really gain a new identity. He is now the bond servant of a new Lord, and that Lord is Jesus.

JB: Yes.

JD: And it really sets us up now—because what’s at stake is not just that Acts 9 is making allusions to a very important text in the Old Testament, namely Isaiah 42, as if Paul fulfills directly Isaiah 42, because you’re going to say that’s actually not the case. There’s Isaiah 42 talking about another servant before Paul is a servant. Yes. So we want to go back there—

TK: before we do, can we finish the just because the servant who actually says the name of the road, which is interesting, they never do that in the New Testament. Can you just tell us that?

JB: Well, yeah. So Saul is led to the street called Straight. I think that’s Acts 9:11, which is somewhat you might find, you would find in, of course, like Isaiah 40, verse 3, but Isaiah 42, verse 16, 2, where the Lord would turn the crooked path straight. Now in Acts, the play between crooked roads always and straight is quite important. We find that in Acts that in as well, when Saul confronts Elymas or Bar-Jesus, and he blinds him, sort of blindness, but it appears again, because he is making crooked the straight path of the Lord, the straight path or ways of the Lord. And so, in a sense, Saul had been on that road of persecuting God’s people. And of course, in that encounter with Christ on the road, he is exposed as an enemy to God. And, in a sense, his path had been crooked, if you might put it that way. But what is happening then with the transformation that happens is straightening out, transforming him in that regard and leading him on the way. And you know, the idea of the way—he was persecuting the Way, you know, the people who belong to the Way, but he now as well begins the journey on the correct path. So the street, I think, is quite symbolic in that regard. It’s not just merely that he happens to be there, but I think at the Lord’s instructions, he’s led there for a purpose straight.

TK: Yes, the street called Straight.

JD: Well, I’m just sitting here in my heart. My heart is pounding, and my joy is abounding because you’re showing me things about the beauty of Scripture that I’ve never seen. And the point of this very podcast is to try to show how it is that the whole Word of God is indeed intentionally crafted. And it’s really exciting to me. And I want our listeners to get all the way to the end. So you’ve given us seven key connections that you’re proposing between Acts 9 and Isaiah 42.

JB: Yeah, so the seventh would be Jesus as the one who controls salvation history, that’s on a thematic level.

TK: So in Isaiah 42, what do you mean by “a thematic level”?

JB: So in this, they are not necessarily, you know, that’s not relying on the similar words, so to speak, or linguistic connections, but rather themes. So like in Isaiah 41 to actually Isaiah, the seven songs, one of the main things that mark Yahweh as unique as Lord, is that he controls history. And so you find things like

JD: Whereas the idols don’t.

JB: No, the idols do not. And so “I proclaimed this before your eyes, and I brought it to pass.” you know, in Isaiah 43, he summons, or he summons the witnesses of the idols or the gods of the nations and says, “Has anyone ever let them declare what is coming to pass and come and fulfill it, let them tell us of the things of the past.” So the idea that God brings to pass history, or salvation history and directs it becomes a unique marker of his divine identity or uniqueness in that sense.

And in Acts, that sort of salvation history direction has Christ as the Lord as such. And Acts 9 brings that idea out too. So when he says, “It is—you will be told what is necessary for you to do,” the language of divine necessity. This is what should be done is, you could say, Christ-centered, or Christ’s ascension, as some might put it. But that weaves itself through Acts as well.

So you read Acts 18, noted of, you know, when Paul is discouraged on the road that Jesus had set him up, you know, on, Jesus appears to him in a vision as well. And strengthens him and says, “I am with you,” in that sense, and “I have many in Corinth, who are my people.”

In Acts 19:21, when Paul says, “Now, after I’m done with, you know, this place and Jerusalem, it is necessary for me to head to Rome.” Jesus appears to him in a vision in Acts 23, verse 11 and tells him, “Yes, it is necessary for you to go to Rome. So that, as you testified concerning me in Jerusalem, you must testify concerning me in Rome.”

So the journey of Saul or Paul, right from Jerusalem to Rome, is begun and directed by the Lord, provisions through commands and, you know, through his word as such. And so the control of salvation before Israel and the nations is another sort of like thematic link between Isaiah 42 and, of course, 44 and Acts 9.

TK: And beyond in Acts. And beyond.

JD: And it’s a fulfillment of this entire vision of moving from gathering a remnant of Israel, but not only from Israel, but from all the nations.

JB: Yes.

JD: And, and that parallel is, is also straight out of, of Isaiah 42.

JB: Yes. Yes.

JD: A, a light for my people. And, sorry, a covenant for my people and a light for the nations.

JB: Yes.

JD: Beautiful. So let’s go to Isaiah 42 because, Isaiah 42 before it’s ever fulfilled in the life of Saul, it’s pointing somewhere else. So let’s reflect on that just briefly.

JB: Yeah.

JD: Right off the bat, we see a servant. Yes. And God is talking, Yahweh is talking about a servant and you, it from Isaiah 40 to Isaiah 53, this term servant shows up 20 times, always in the singular. And after Isaiah 53 from Isaiah 54 to Isaiah 60, the same term only shows up in the plural. And there’s significance of that fact. I want you to clarify for us: who is this servant? And servant shows up many times in Isaiah 40 to 53 in the singular, but you wouldn’t see all these references as referring to the same individual.

JB: Yeah. So, of course, as you might know, there are quite different schools of thought as to the identity of the servant. There are those who would see the servant as an individual. And you could say the Messiah. I think that the Aramaic rendering of Isaiah would take that, would look at the Messiah as such. There are those like the Septuagint perhaps which might be more inclined to Israel as a nation. And there are those who would say, maybe it’s a prophet. I think one of the Jewish commentators, even Ezra would so much be inclined towards the prophet. But there are those who would see a remnant, a select individual or faithful Israelites who would be referred to as the servant.

Now, I tend to incline towards seeing the servant as the Messiah. So I, I more would agree with, with, with Targum. And yet,

TK: Targum is a word again. Can you tell us what—

JB: The Aramaic translation of Targum Jonathan would be, you know, put—

JD: So in the same way that we have English translations. Yes. One of the ancient languages was called Aramaic. Yeah. And they had a translation plus commentary called the Targum on the Old Testament Hebrew text. And so within that translation slash commentary, they interpret the servant of Isaiah 42 as the eschatological Messiah, the hope for regime. The last days, son of David would rise and overcome evil and fix the problems of the world. And you’re saying that when you’re reading Isaiah 42 one through 19, you’re seeing the servant that’s being portrayed here as first and foremost, the one that we call Jesus—the Messiah.

JB: Yes. So, so Matthew 12 will be even more explicit in doing that. Matthew 12 cites Isaiah 42 at length. I think probably the longest citation in the New Testament and applies that to Christ. And so, and so in terms of links within Isaiah 42, I think there is Isaiah 11 that, you know, the shoot or the stump of Jesse upon whom is the spirit of the Lord and as well, who goes out to the nations in that regard. And there is Isaiah 61:1–3 as well, kind of links to Isaiah 42, which in a sense would suggest that the servant would be a sort of like the Davidic royal Messiah as such. So, you know, when I read 42, especially 42:1–7 in that sense, I think that focus and the impression I get is of what we see as Christ in the New Testament, who embodies the servant’s identity and mission as such.

Now, of course, you know, when we when we continue and see the description, you begin to see a few descriptions that you might say would not be particularly applied to Christ except in as much as he takes on, you know, our own foreignness. So, when we move forward to 42:8-19 as such, where the servant is blind and, you know, of which blindness is the spiritual blindness, you begin to see this, this is not particularly predicated of Christ as himself in himself, per se, but perhaps in terms of the blindness of his people and of the nation. So, that the servant also represents a people, not just himself, but he represents, you could say, not all the nation of Israel as such.

JD: So, the servant person, yeah, an individual who will bring justice to the many, who is perfectly right before God, who has no guilt in him, will in some way represent another servant, a servant people who is spiritually disabled, blind and deaf, and he will bring healing to them.

JB: Yes.

JD: So, overview for us, just focused on verses one through seven, remind our listeners what we learn about this servant person. What do we learn about him?

JB: So, we learn that, well, he’s chosen of God, we learn that the Lord so delights in him, so he pleases the Lord. We learn that he has the spirit of the Lord upon him, we learn that he is sent to the nations to bring of course justice and proclamation of righteousness, and we also learn that he will be able to be a light to the nations and a covenant to the people or “my people,” I think as the Aramaic rendering might be. We also learn indeed that through his mission and ministry among the nations, in that sense, the nations will get to know the salvation of the Lord, at least in the first seven verses. Of course, there is the opening of the eyes of the blind and which we see very prevalent in Jesus’ own earthly ministry and the leading of prisoners out of their dark dungeons.

So, the servant chosen has the spirit of God, sent to the nations is a light to the nations, a covenant to the peoples, opens the eyes of the blind, leads prisoners out of their darkness, or dark dungeons.

JD: We only know of one person who could be called light. He said, “I am the light of the world,” and yet I say that, and I say no, there’s others who are called the light of the world. Jesus actually says his disciples are the light of the world.

You started our podcast saying that Luke describes Saul’s conversion, his encounter with the light, his spiritual sight as fulfilling in seven different ways, Isaiah 42. But now we go back to Isaiah 42 and you said, well, the servant in Isaiah 42 is actually Jesus who is called to encounter a servant people who are blind and deaf, like Saul was blind and deaf. So help me understand how you get from how Luke, I mean—it’s not you, you’re not doing this, Luke is doing this. Luke is using Isaiah 42 that in its original setting was predicting the coming and the mission of Jesus as the Messianic servant. And you’re saying, Luke is actually now applying what was true of Jesus as representative of Israel. He’s now applying it to Paul. How do you get there? How did Luke get there? Explain it for us.

JB: So it’s sort of like the idea of the one and the many, that the one represents the many. I think—I can’t remember who just recently caught my, you know, directed me slightly to John where Jesus tells the disciples and says, “As the Father has sent me, so do I.” So there’s a sense in which Christ’s mission in the Gospels is taken over or continued, so to speak, through the apostles and through his people. So that in a way, his apostles and his disciples have or bear the identity and the mission of the Messiah in that sense. And so they do what he continues to do, what he had begun to do. And of course, as Sam might point out to chapter one, he speaks, you know, Luke talks to Theophilus, yes, and says, you know, “In my first volume, I wrote to you concerning the things that Jesus began to do and to teach.” So in a sense—

JD: And we’re in the book of Acts, he talks to Theophilus and he refers to his first volume. What’s Luke talking about?

JB: Well, that’s the Gospel.

JD: Okay, the Gospel. And so in the Gospel of Luke, “I already told you, Theophilus, what Jesus began to do and to teach.”

JB: Yes.

JD: So what implication are you drawing on that for the book of Acts?

JB: I would say that through the Spirit, and that’s the other link to that, through the Spirit, the Acts and the mission of Christ is continued through the apostles.

JD: And so even in Acts 16:7, the Spirit of Acts 1:8 that “will come upon you and you’ll be my witnesses from Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, to the ends of the earth.” That very Spirit is called the Spirit of Jesus.

JB: The Spirit of Jesus. Yes.

JD: So the very Spirit that is resting on the apostles as they’re testifying and on the deacons as they’re testifying is the Spirit of Jesus. So Jesus is fulfilling—Luke is setting us up to say, Jesus today, what he began to do and to teach is described in the Gospel, but then he goes up and he sends his Spirit so that now in a very true way, what he’s doing through the church is what he continues to do.

TK: Jesus is doing it.

JB: Yes. And which is why when he encounters Saul on the road, he says, “It is Jesus whom you persecute.” Right.

TK: In one sense, he’s not persecuting Jesus because he’s going after Christians—

JB: —Christians, but for Christ there is a union, I think, between him and his church in such a way that then the church continues his activity.

JD: he is the head where his body is.

JB: So in that sense, then what is true of Christ, there is a sense in which what is true of him is also true of Saul, is also true of Peter, is also true of the apostles as such, so that they are also chosen, they also have the Spirit of God upon them. They are also sent to the nations to be light to the nations as such.

JD: An intriguing element, and you already in a previous conversation, you drew attention to this text, but you just mentioned a bunch of apostles upon whom the Spirit rests through whom Jesus is working. But it’s not only them, is it? I’m thinking Acts 13. What happens in Acts 13 and who is—there’s someone else with Paul who’s not an apostle. Yes. And together they are portrayed as fulfilling the mission of the servant.

JB: Yes. Acts 13:47, I think, is—of course Paul and Barnabas at the beginning of Acts 13, the Spirit has asked the church in Antioch to separate them for a mission for the purpose that the Spirit has, and they’ve been sent out of Antioch as such. But they are speaking, you know, and they’re speaking to Jews in the synagogue and they speak about the work that God has done through Christ that began with the preaching of John the Baptist. And when the Jews reject them, Paul and Barnabas, Paul says, you know, of course he speaks about how they have been sent as light to the nations, which is Isaiah 49:6, I think, in fulfillment. But that text, seen in Isaiah, is actually a Messianic—it applies to the Messiah, and yet for Saul and Barnabas, they are taking on that very identity and that very mission. So that again, what is said of the Messiah, what is said of the Isaiah Servant in Isaiah, is true of those who follow Christ as such, in their mission and in their call.

JD: So it’s not just the apostles, but it’s also people like Barnabas, which means it’s people like you and people like me and like our listeners who are part of the church. All of a sudden, we are actually part of this global work of the Messiah that was predicted by Isaiah. It’s, I mean, it’s amazing. The God of the universe is actually fulfilling Scripture in modern day through the mission of the church. And it’s the mission of Christ, that he was given. Christ is working his gospel spreading, his kingdom advancing for the sake of healthy churches around the world. He’s working it even now through us. It’s amazing.

TK: I think sometimes the New Testament does in books like quoting the Psalms, when I grew up, I tended to use the Old Testament and use it as a launching to the New Testament and then stay in the New Testament.

JB: Yeah.

TK: What do you think about this statement? Luke is trying to send us to the servant songs so we soak in that when we’re thinking about Paul. What do you think rather than thinking, “Oh, let’s jump from Isaiah to Acts?” What do you think about that thought of Luke is actually wanting us to go soak in the Servant Songs?

JB: So in Uganda, as you rightly mentioned, in Uganda, we do not tend to dwell in the Old Testament. We like our New Testament, partly because it’s shorter to read, and partly because the Old Testament has books like Numbers and Leviticus. But also partly because—

TK: Clearly Uganda is the only nation in the Old Testament that’s not in Australia.

JB: But also partly because we haven’t been trained in its consequence of the fact that we are not, most of our pastors have no theological training whatsoever. And so we do not think in terms of the big stories. We do not think in terms of, how does the New Testament continue the story that we find in the Old Testament. We tend to see a replacement sort of like aspect where we don’t appreciate the fact that what the New Testament authors are doing is showing us the fulfillment and the continuation of the story of God’s people in the Old. And I think for me doing, looking at Isaiah in Acts has forced me to reckon with the significance of the Old Testament for the New. That it’s not just proof texts as such. It’s not like I have a point that I want to make and I would just look for a verse that might suit that. Now that’s what we tend to do with especially with prosperity, preachings and all that. I have an idea that I want to communicate. I begin thinking about which verses might communicate that. But what I find with Luke is actually he weaves his historical story with Old Testament allusions or ideas or themes or texts in such a way as to show a continuation of God’s big story. And so just look beginning to look at what Dr. Malone had mentioned as the meta narrative, the big story from Genesis to Revelation. I think is something that misses in my context. It missed for a long time in my own salvation journey. But I do hope that most of my pastors or friends in Africa and in Uganda can begin to see God’s story as complete and big and spanning across the Testaments as such, and so that we can appreciate that Genesis and Leviticus and Isaiah and Ezekiel have something. It’s their foundation to how we understand the message of the salvation, the work of Christ and the hope of the afterlife that we would have.

JD: Brother Joseph, my heart is edified and I praise the Lord for you because what you’ve done, you’ve not only taken us into Scripture, you yourself are a living example of operating now as a servant of the Servant person. Israel is represented by Jesus and now you are in Jesus and God is raising you up to give testimony to the excellencies of Christ and ultimately to carry out his mission and you’re being equipped so well and you’ve served us so well today. My soul is filled and I pray that our readers can just delight in the unity of Scripture in a way that doesn’t cause them just to pause but to say, oh my goodness, I bear this high responsibility, this beautiful opportunity to take part in the mission of Christ in seeing light shine to overcome the darkness. I think about 2 Corinthians 4 where Paul says “We share our gospel and to those who don’t listen they are perishing and their eyes have been blinded by the god of this world. But the God who said let light shine out of darkness has shown into our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ,” and we have tasted something that needs to be proclaimed and what’s amazing is as we do, Jesus is actually the one who is speaking through us. Jesus is actually the one who’s working through us that, I mean, it leads me right to the very next verse. “We have this treasure in jars of clay.” That’s all we are. May we never think greatly about ourselves. We are mere jars of clay in order to show that the surpassing power comes not from us but from him and today I have gotten a glimpse more of the glory of God in the face of Christ through your just leading us faithfully through the book and I praise the Lord for it. How rich our God is in giving us this word, how beautiful our Christ is and that he would save our soul. May he use us. May he use you as you serve your people. May he continue to use us and may he keep us faithful.

TK: Amen.

JB: Joseph, I can’t—however, the Lord would arrange it. I would love to do this again someday.

JD: It would be. Yeah, it would be terrific.

JB: I’m so thankful for this conversation and thank you for the opportunity and for the platform and praying that the Lord may continue to use you again as his servants as we participate in his mission as his body. I think that’s a matter for that has taken on a rich and meaning for me. The more I have dug into Isaiah and Acts, understanding what it means to be the body of Christ that is multi-ethnic from different, I mean we have three continents here. So thank you for the opportunity and may God bless you.

JD: Brother Joseph, brother Andrew, thanks so much.

TK: Thanks brothers for blessing us today. Thank you for joining us for GearTalk. For resources related to biblical theology, visit handstotheplow.org or jasonderouchie.com.