JY: Welcome to Gear Talk, a podcast on Biblical Theology. Today, Tom Kelby and Jason DeRouchie talk once again about the need to focus on the text rather than the event. The conversation today focuses on Moses’s words in Genesis 1:1–2:3.

TK: Welcome to Gear Talk. I’m Tom Kelby. I am sitting again with Jason DeRouchie.

JD: Hey, Tom, good to be back.

TK: Yeah, it is good to be back. We talked about something we called text or event. Jason, give the very quick summary of what we meant by these three words text or event.

JD: Yeah, what’s at stake is when we’re doing interpretation and preaching, is our goal to focus on what the Bible says or what the Bible points to? What gave rise to the Bible? That is, the events behind the Bible. And what we said is that God’s word is found in Scripture itself. And preaching and interpretation is a textual discipline. Our goal isn’t to find out as much information as we can about the ancient world when we go to preach. We believe God gave us his word in a book, and so our goal is to discern what’s in the book and show our people, proclaim to our people God’s perspective as it’s revealed to us on those various events. So we gave an example of in the book of Exodus, how the Pharaoh is never mentioned, whereas two midwives that would seem so superfluous, so secondary, so small, both of them get names in the early part of Exodus.

TK: Can I just ask you because we didn’t go there in this. So, if you are the preacher, you are teaching a Sunday school class—finish the thought here: Why does Moses name them? What’s his point?

JD: He’s wanting to elevate that these two women, Shiphra and Puah in Exodus chapter 1, were women of God who feared God. I think he’s wanting to elevate the fact that these are true women of Abraham, true daughters of Abraham that cherished God and were worth naming in order to identify them as real people, who trusted in the Lord, and even putting their own lives on the line.

TK: It says that in Exodus 1:21, “And because the midwives feared God, he gave them families.” That is the key—they feared God. And this is what fearing God looks like. I think this whole text or event thing, I can’t think of how many conversations I’ve been part of where the conversation centers around did they tell a lie? Should they ever tell a lie? And you think you’ve done exactly what we’re just talking about? Now you’re talking about the event versus you’ve gone somewhere the author didn’t go.

JD: And it’s not that we don’t have spheres in which we ask those questions and wrestle in our biblical counseling, how should we think about deception? There’s a place for that. And there may even be a comment for it in a sermon if we can show our answer from the biblical text. But when it comes to preaching Exodus 1, our goal is to try to discern why did the author give us the facts that he did? Why did he put it in the order that he did? Why did he leave out certain information that we would have loved to have known? Because that’s not part of the sermon and biblical stories are sermons in story form. And our responsibility is to clarify for our people, why does God give us what he does? This is God’s inspired perspective on this event. This is what he wants passed down throughout all the ages. It’s this story as he describes it, not the history behind the story, but the story as he describes it that is designed to change lives, to heighten hope in the coming of Christ and to portray for us what true faith in the living God looks like.

TK: And what a true hero looks like. The leading role we would think would be Pharaoh. The most important man in the world, seemingly, at that time. Yet it’s the two midwives who get the attention from heaven.

JD: That’s right. That’s right. And so we would want to clarify why is that so right.

TK: So we picked two texts that we did not get to. Actually one is a text by itself, one chapter, and then one is two different books in the Bible. But want to start with this idea of text or event and talk about Genesis 1. So why do we pick this Jason?

JD: Well, because when people say we’re going to teach Genesis 1, so often in our circles people automatically think, Oh, we’re going to learn about the age of the earth. We’re going to hear a discussion about evolution versus creation. It could be old earth creation, young earth creation, evolutionary creation. However it is. But that’s it. Like we’re going to talk about science and history.

TK: And just before we go further, you actually have some real thoughts about all those projects, don’t you?

JD: I do have some real thoughts about those subjects. I’ve written on those subjects and Genesis 1 was one of the key places that I went to to find my answers. But I’ve never preached on Genesis 1 from those perspectives. There’s a difference between teaching and wrestling with those questions Christianly, and using Scripture to point in the direction versus what a preacher is called to do in guiding his people and saying thus says the Lord.

TK: So what you’re is, what is Moses doing in Genesis 1. What is he saying?

JD: That’s right. Why is Genesis 1 the first chapter of our Bible? Now, we might automatically say it’s because it’s in the beginning. But do you recognize that the story that ends in Revelation—or that Revelation points to and that it will continue forever—but the story that takes us all the way to Revelation 22 starts in Genesis 2:4? In Genesis chapter 2, there’s no man and woman on the earth. They haven’t been commissioned to reign and rule with God yet. In Genesis 2:4 the story starts. And that makes Genesis 1:1–2:3 a preface not only to Genesis, but to the first five books of Moses, and indeed to the whole of Bible. The story that runs from Genesis to Revelation—the story itself begins in Genesis 2:4. That’s where the narrative picks up. And so we have to ask ourselves, why did God start the book with this mention of in the beginning God created., work through seven days, and then jump backward and as if humans weren’t created yet, and then carry that story on nonstop all the way to the end of Revelation. Why did he do it that way?

TK: So an event based explanation would be Moses. Well, people who didn’t believe in God’s word would say somebody was grabbing random stories from different places and spliced them together without thought.

JD: And here’s one more creation epic from the ancient world. And we have them from Egypt. We have them from Mesopotamia. And this is one more example just from the Israelites that tells us less about even history and more about the perspective of the gods and how they were acting. That would be one thought. Most Christian preachers wouldn’t be thinking in those categories, but they would be thinking about, OK, we’re talking creation, therefore we’re going to preach a sermon on a topic, namely creation. We’re going to talk about things related to creation, the age of the earth. We’re going to talk about, how did God create. We’re going to talk about facts related to historical issues. And it’s facts that Genesis 1 does point to.

But Genesis 1, when we step back and say, why did this chapter get up front if the story begins in Genesis 2:4, and then we consider the fact that it’s Moses who gives us this chapter? Moses who, after Mount Sinai, went into the wilderness with a rebellious people and God punished them with thirty-eight years of wandering, whereas the normal lifespan, says Moses in Psalm 90 was seventy to eighty years. Now you’ve got a group that of twenty year-olds, for example, who are going to be dead within thirty-eight more years. They’re only going to be fifty-eight years old, whereas the normal lifespan could have taken them to seventy or even eighty. So what that means is that as Moses is walking through the wilderness, there’s a higher death rate. People are dying and they don’t know where God’s going to lead them next. So you’ve got children who are growing and saying, I wonder if God’s going to lead us by dad’s grave again. I wonder if we’re going to pass.

TK: Because they’re circling in the wilderness.

JD: They’re circling. They’re walking through the wilderness. They’re they’re revisiting locations. And my brother is buried on the other side of that mountain. And they’re were being reminded for thirty-eight more years after Mount Sinai of death and death as the punishment for sin. And it’s to those people that God puts Genesis 1 up front. They’re the ones who hear Genesis 1. And believe me, what they were needing to hear from God was not about the age of the earth, or about how God created. That wasn’t the focus, even though I think Genesis 1 talks about those things. Life and death was at stake when they heard God’s word, and when Moses wrote these words first on a scroll, life and death for people who are saying how can I live and not die because my brother died, my uncle died, my father died and I don’t want that. And God gives them Genesis 1.

TK: So tell us why you said they’re the ones this was written to first. So they’re the first, if you want to say audience, of the book of Genesis. So why are you saying that now?

JD: Yeah, that might be a little confusing. I’m not saying that God didn’t speak to Adam and Eve. He did speak to them. In fact, we read in Genesis chapter 5:1 “The book of the genealogy of Adam.” And then it takes us for ten generations all the way up to Noah. And then there’s many more genealogies in the book. And we hear the stories of Abraham and the promises God made to him. We know that God was engaging people way before Moses, but what we also know is that Moses is the first one in the story who is told to write things down. And he’s the one that God builds the relationship through. He’s the mediator or the head of the covenant with Israel. And he’s the one—after God gives the Ten Commandments and puts them on two tablets of stone, God instructs Moses to write more words of the covenant down in a book. And as they journey beyond Mount Sinai, he’s instructed many times to write more things down in a book. And then we come to the New Testament all the way to the Gospel of Mark and it mentions the book singular of Moses (Mark 12:26). It was a five part book on five scrolls. Elsewhere we’re told that Moses has writings, John chapter 5 for example (John 5:47). Moses gave us writings and over and over again. The Pentateuch, or the five scroll book is associated with Moses’s authority and Moses’s authorship.

And so what I’m saying is that Genesis 1 comes to us—it seems most likely there is nobody there to watch God do all these events. Adam and Eve, the first man and woman came on day six. And so God is giving a special revelation to someone and that most likely someone is Moses, who’s then structuring for us the beginning of the Bible. It comes to us in the context of covenant, the special relationship between God and his people. And all of a sudden a people are being given Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Genesis in particular is given to Israel to clarify their role in the whole world. What went wrong with the world? Who is God? I think it’s answering these questions. Who is God? Where are we? Who are we? What are we supposed to value?

TK: Like you said of people who are dying. And they’re watching failure all around them.

JD: That’s right. And they need words of life. They need a greater perspective on reality. And I think that’s exactly what Genesis 1:1–2:3 gives. This is a unique chapter that focuses on God, God, God, God. God said it. God did it. God made it. God. God. God. We don’t talk that way. We have said God, who’s the only actor, the only subject God did it, and he and he and he made and he said, and he did. Genesis 1 is the only chapter in all the Bible that uses an explicit subject like we see in Genesis 1. And it’s focusing, then, the reader to recognize when you see the moose, when you enjoy the watermelon—think God. Not only is the one from whom these things came, of course he’s the creator. But he’s the one—when you encounter all these things in reality, it’s supposed to point you back to him.

TK: So the point you’re making is if—I’m looking at Genesis 1 right now—Moses could have said, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. And then at that point a normal way we talk is I would start using—because you know the subject now, I would say he did this then he did this because you already know who I’m talking about.

JD: And there’s only one person who’s there, God.

TK: So the logical thing, seemingly to us, would be tell the story that way because it’s repetitive. If I’m always saying Jason did this, Jason did that. Jason did this, somebody’s going to stop me and say.

JD: Right, in the rest of the Bible, when stories are told, once a subject is given, it’s very common to just use those pronouns as the subject until a new character comes in, and then you need to be clear who’s doing the talking, who’s doing the acting.

TK: So what’s your point in saying why would Moses—how many times did you say it happens here?

JD: Thirty-five times.

TK: With no pronouns.

JD: With no pronouns. It mentions God’s name thirty-five times, and that’s a multiple of seven, and I think that’s intentional. Seven days, seven evenings and mornings, and thirty-five times God’s name is mentioned. This title, God, God, God did. And and we come in as this reader wanting to find ourselves, and as soon as we do in day six, the spotlight moves off of us because we’re the image of God.

TK: So even when I want to be the subject, I’m not the subject.

JD: It all of a sudden turns the spotlight off of us and puts it on him. And this was the central issue for Israel. They needed to realize that this is a world not about them, but about God. That this is about his priorities, his values, his desires, his delights. And not only that, we are imagers of him. We are supposed to reflect and resemble and represent him. That’s what humanity is about. It’s only on day six that we hear very good. Now that the imagers who are supposed to rule over God’s creation and represent God to the world, and indeed fill the whole earth with his glory. That’s what humanity was called to do. And this becomes a reshaping of Israel’s worldview. They’ve been wondering, how do I live and not die? And I think Moses is giving them clarity, and it speaks all the way to our day today. This is so practical.

TK: So how does this? Reshape my worldview.

JD: Oh, to live with God at the center. To try to help—for me as a dad, I want my kids to, when we’re out in the canoe or out in our kayaks in the Boundary Waters of northern Minnesota, delighting in the beauty, I want them to remember God. When we enjoy a hot fudge Sunday or hot dogs, or marshmallows around the fire, I want them to remember God. When we celebrate a wedding, I want them to remember God. But not only that, in the midst of suffering. Like Grandpa is getting sicker and sicker. I want my kids to remember God. When the trials come and the tears flow, we are to remember God. When it comes to battling sin, which remember what God hates and what God loves. This is as practical for us as it was for Israel of old.

And that’s why it’s at the front part of our Bible. Why is it that the story is captured the way it is? It tells us so many things about the structure of God, about the order of God, about the the strength of God. But at the center of it all is God exalted over all things, and our responsibility to display him. And this is foundational for all that we are as believers and what humans were called to do. It’s what Jesus did for us. He is indeed in the very form of God, the exact imprint of his nature. He is the image of the invisible God. That is, he’s the ultimate human who does what Adam was supposed to do for us. And, therefore, we can rest and celebrate in a Christ who represents God on our behalf, and ultimately is increasingly making us now into his image. All of this would be part of my preaching, but trying to show how it grows right out of the biblical text itself, out of the priorities Moses gives us in the text itself.

TK: Walk us a little further. What else would you say, based on Moses’s writing of the events, that he’s talking about—Moses is emphasizing. And so because of that, we already said it, Moses’s perspective is heaven’s perspective. So what else would you see in Genesis 1? And you didn’t just say Genesis 1, you said 1:1 through 2:3

JD: That’s because the seven days—here’s an example of a chapter division that God didn’t give us that. A man put in the chapter division. And it’s a strange spot that he put it.

TK: So what I’m hearing you say is you would actually preach 1:1–2:3.

JD: That’s right, because that’s where the seven days, the full seven days are captured. The Sabbath rest of God is not found until chapter 2:1–3. So what would some things that Moses brought out? He brought out a parallel—a parallel between formless and void. Such that the first half of the week he takes what is formless and gives it form. He first creates light. Then he distinguishes sky from water. Then he gives us land and separates it from the sea. Now that’s he gives form where there was no form. But then he takes that which was empty and fills it. So in day four, he fills day one’s light and places the rulers of that, the luminaries, the greater light and the lesser light. In day five it parallels day two, so that now we get the birds of the air and the fish of the sea. And then in day six, paralleling the rise of the land and the growth of the plants, now we get those that fill that and that indeed rule that the animals are created, and then humans as the culmination of God’s creation.

This is part of Moses’s purpose, to draw attention to the parallels, the structured order of God, but also to show humanity as the climax of his creative events. He’s building something and the longest speech, which in this chapter comes in the sixth day in relation to humans. That too tells us something. Now we found ourselves. But like I said, as soon as we find ourselves, it points the focus off of us and back on to God. And it’s when humans are living in this sphere, as imagers of God, that God can declare things very good.

TK: You mentioned it, I think on one of our previous podcast, but we had talked in our last episode and we actually talked about at the beginning here about naming things about the naming of the sun. And you want to just mentioned the the thought of the sun is not named here.

JD: Right. And this, I think, relates to the fact that Moses is writing the story and he’s coming out of Egypt, where Shamash was the sun god and shemesh is the Hebrew term for the sun. And Israel is being rescued through the exodus from a polytheistic culture, meaning they believed in many gods and they associated all the different created spheres with the gods of the world. That’s how they thought about the gods. There’s the tree gods and the sun gods and the wind gods, the storm gods, the Nile river gods. And the way that Moses crafts, under God’s direction, crafts Genesis 1, he makes clear there’s one God who’s over all of this. All the rest is created. And then when it comes to the sun, moon and stars, it won’t even name the sun the sun—it simply calls it the greater light. And not only that, it indicates its secondary role, because there was light sustaining plants, even before there was the sun. The sun is merely a means for sustaining life. It’s not a necessary means though.

TK: So the idea almost is let’s just imagine I’m a person who has the sun in a certain god-like spot and I’m waiting for you to mention it. Almost like we look for ourselves in a certain picture and say, wait a minute, there was light before there was sun and you didn’t even name it. What are you doing? And you’re saying Moses is intentional in doing this?

JD: It seems as though he would be intentional in doing this. I mean everything is intentional. We have to say why. And I think—if all we had was Genesis 1, we could identify that God is being exalted over all things. But the fact that we can we know something more about the Egyptian world, and we can even see it in the way the plagues are laid out and the fact that after all the plagues we learned that God did battle against the gods. That’s how it’s worded in Exodus 17, so he did battle against the gods of Egypt when he entered the plagues. And almost all the plagues we know today can be identified with, associated with, an Egyptian god. But all that that information tells us now is that, oh, there’s an argument behind Genesis 1, an argument helping to reorient Israel’s worldview, coming out of a very worldly pagan culture. And so for us as preachers, it can serve us. The more we understand the why does Moses say it the way he does and the fact that it’s Moses coming out of Egypt. What might that imply about how he crafts Genesis 1, what his point is.

TK: He’s writing this, having lived the exodus event.

JD: Yes, and even the light coming over darkness. That’s how the exodus story is told, that light is shining. And yet for Egypt, they’re all in the black. And the cloud is separating so that it’s light where Israel is and dark where where Pharaoh and Egypt is. And from the very beginning, God has been in the business of exalting light and having it overcome darkness. Even—and I can end here—there’s so much more that we could go into in Genesis chapter 1. Spurgeon wrote a devotional called morning and evening, and many people have benefited from his devotional. But that’s not what Moses says in Genesis 1. He says there was evening, and there was morning day one. I think there’s a theological point being made here: that in God’s time day does not end in the night.

TK: Night does not conquer the day.

JD: That’s right, light always conquers the night. Day one: light conquers the night—Day two. And it moves all the way through day three, day four, day five, and actually, and you see this in the New American Standard, only in the New American Standard does it recall this, but the Hebrew then says the sixth day.

TK: So you’re—is a first day, a second day.

JD: That’s right. That’s how it is in the Hebrew. And what that does is it draws attention to day six, where humanity is made as images of God. But the fact that there’s evening and there is morning, that’s a hopeful testimony for people who are in the midst of darkness. Look ahead, day is coming. Mourning may last for a time, but joy comes in the morning (Ps 30:5).

TK: So as as we wrap up. If you are going to—you’ve helped us out—if you’re preaching how to think about Genesis 1? What about tackling some of these things? Like if I wanted to talk about creation, evolution, where would you put that in the context of of a local church and where that fits?

JD: I think it fits well, at least in the West, in Sunday night, Wednesday night Bible study. It fits well in a Sunday school class where we’re addressing topics, issues that are fully related to Scripture and where we want biblical answers. But there’s a special role given to the preacher and—I mean, all the answers that we want to seek, we want to funnel them through the biblical text. It’s our authority for all of life, whether it’s dealing with doctrine or with ethics, with faith or with practice. But when it comes to preaching.

TK: Preaching the word.

JD: Thus says the Lord, and that’s what we’re called to do, I believe in the context of corporate worship gathering, opening the word, reading the word, proclaiming the word, not the word of man, not the musings or thoughts or inklings. But proclaiming the word of God, and that’s where I think, allowing the people to recognize the beauty, the power of a text like Genesis 1 in exalting God over all things, and putting us in our place as those who are called to reflect and resemble and represent God—his imagers on Earth.

TK: So again, we’ve been talking about text or event, and I hope what you’re seeing is you don’t lose. You’re not losing by saying I’m preaching the text. Actually, there’s riches there that God was leading Moses to write it the way he wrote it. And we want to find it.

JD: That’s right. That’s right.

TK: All right, we will have to consider these things again.

JY: Thanks for joining us for Gear Talk. If you have questions about Biblical Theology you’d like us to address on future episodes, e-mail us at [email protected]. Also, check out HandstothePlow.org for resources designed to help you understand the Bible and its teachings.