JY: Thank you for joining us for GearTalk, a podcast on biblical theology. Today we’re back in the Book of Proverbs. This is our second podcast on this book. The first episode introduced Proverbs. Today Tom and Jason spend the bulk of this episode talking about the remarkable words found in Proverbs 30 and their connection to the Lord Jesus.

TK: Welcome to GearTalk. Jason and Tom here. We are talking about the Book of Proverbs today. Hey Jason.

JD: Hey Tom. Good to be back with you.

TK: This is our second week in this book, but we’ve spent quite a bit of time talking about Solomon and books he wrote. So, thinking about this book, Jason, you kind of gave us an outline for it. And I’m going to just give this outline. You can just jump in and fill in cracks where we’re needing to hear something. But you said basically, you could divide the book into five parts. As a way, you’ve divided it. A preamble, that would be 1:1–7. And then three chunks of wisdom, parental wisdom, 1:8–9:18. Proverbial wisdom, and that would be 10 through kind of right almost at the very end of the book, up to chapter 30. And then sage wisdom. So parental wisdom, proverbial wisdom, and then sage wisdom, and then a conclusion. So is that a normal way people talk about this book, would you say?

JD: Well, there’s definitely a focus in those that are interpreting the book. They recognize there’s different elements. I haven’t seen anyone quite put it the way that I have there. But the general thought that the book opens with a parent talking to children, youth who are growing, gaining more responsibility, facing new levels of temptation, that the bulk of the book is dominated from 10–29 with these proverbial collections, four of them, both proverbs of Solomon and words of the wise.

TK: So we go parental wisdom, and then in that second category, proverbial wisdom, you’re saying there’s four kind of subcategories under that.

JD: Right. Right. It’s framed by Proverbs of Solomon. We see that in 10:1, and then in 25:1, it’s the proverbs of Solomon that were collected, put together by those associated with Hezekiah. So they’re still proverbs of Solomon, but a whole group that were drawn together after Solomon in the mid 700s, and Solomon is from the 900s. So they were floating around all these proverbs, and they were brought together then in the days of King Hezekiah. That frames this unit, and then in the middle of the unit are two sections, a longer one, beginning in 22:17, of the words of the wise ones, and then just two short verses at the end of chapter 24 that say these are additional sayings of the wise ones. And so, yeah, those four units, so parental wisdom, then four units of proverbial wisdom, and then we come to this last section that I’ve defined as sage wisdom, and I say I, that’s actually, this outline is what Brian Verrett and I are using in a new book that we are co-authoring. And he actually came up with the specific headings themselves. And so sage wisdom, we’re talking about wise men, and we find two of them here at the end of the book, Agur and King Lemuel. And from outside of this book, we don’t know of either of these.

TK: We’ve not heard of them at all.

JD: No, we haven’t. These wise guys. And yet their words are intentionally placed and are used by the final orchestrator of the Book of Proverbs, the one who brought all seven of these paths of guidance together. They’re used really here at the end of the book to provide both capstone and to give a lens for even framing them within the whole scope of redemptive history and God’s purposes climaxing in Jesus. So I think that would be a good place for us to start today, Tom.

TK: In the sage wisdom part.

JD: That’s right. That’s right.

TK: All right. Perfect. And then we talked about the conclusion is the ideal wife. And so we will have some thoughts about it at the end, because it really is an important part of this whole book. And I mentioned it last week. It’s important in things like this to not make a joke about something that has a quite serious place in part of God’s Word, but instead to try to understand what it is. But let’s start in chapter 30. So Proverbs chapter 30. What are we looking for here, Jason?

JD: Well, we start off with an allusion. And we might miss this allusion, but I think it’s intentional and significant. “The words of Agur, the son of Jocca, the oracle, the man declares.”

TK: What’s an oracle? Because I’m also going to see that if I go over to 31, “Lemuel, an oracle that his mother taught him.” So it’s not the only place in the Old Testament that this appears the idea of an oracle, but what is an oracle?

JD: So, by oracle, we’re talking about a word from God. And so it’s a prophetic word. It puts what’s about to follow on the level of Agur and Lemuel are both prophets. But the prophets, they did two things. They both preached and they predicted. So, a prophet could have words for the present and words about the future. And usually the words about the future were designed to challenge people in the present. And when it comes to a book of the Bible, the words of the prophet, the present time, continues to take on significance, because this is the word of God, and it’s always relevant. And yet, there are times where the prophecy, all of a sudden, that was future for the original speaker, is no longer future for the reader, where fulfillment has happened in space and time. And just seeing the mention of the oracle doesn’t automatically signal for us that we’re talking about the future, but it raises the possibility that we may be.

TK: Okay, so if it says something, to use a different example, in the Old Testament, it says, “In the latter days, X will happen.” I’m reading this quite some time from them. The fact that it says, in the latter days, doesn’t mean that it’s after me. It just means it’s after the time of the prophet, somehow.

JD: That’s right. That it’s not only after the time of the prophet, but that phrase, latter days, I believe, is a signal in the text for the culmination of history. If in the beginning was related to first creation, in the latter days is related to the restored creation. The time of the Messiah when God would make all things right, all things new, when he would bring judgment, and when he would bring renewal. That’s the latter days. And so, yes, then we as readers come to that phrase in the Old Testament, and we are forced to say, well, have the latter days begun? And the New Testament would be explicit. Are we living in the end times? Peter would say in Acts 2:17, what you’re seeing here at Pentecost is to fulfill what Joel the prophet said would happen in the latter days.

TK: Right, so he’s saying they’ve already started.

JD: That’s right. Similarly, Hebrews 1:1–2. “In former times, God spoke to us through the prophets, but in these latter days, God has spoken through his son.” So I think the New Testament would be clear, explicit, that yes, when we’re reading these oracles that are directly associated with the latter days, that we have to be considering the fact that what was future for the prophet may already be realized in the first appearing of Jesus. As we look at this passage, we don’t see any explicit use of latter days’ language, but that’s where the illusion actually becomes significant. “The oracle of the man.” Now, that confluence of oracle and man shows up only two other times in all of the Bible. One of them is explicitly a latter days’ text, and the other one may allude to it. Both of them, these other texts, refer to the coming of the Messiah. So, I just, I think it’s important here, as we start out with “The words of Agur, son of Jocka, the oracle of the man that declares, I am weary, O God.” And then it continues, and we’re gonna look at this oracle, this word of God. But the allusion, these two other places where we see oracle directly followed by this term man, it shows up first in Numbers 24. It’s an oracle of Balaam.

TK: And so, just to back up for a second, the way you’re doing, kind of showing your work here, Jason, is you’re saying, the other places I’ve seen this—this same collection of words gathered together—it’s been really rare, only two other times, and both of those other times somehow connect to the Messiah. So, it’s making you ask questions about Proverbs 30. Could it be doing the same thing? Is that what you’re saying?

JD: That’s right. It’s suggesting the possibility that even in the way that the words of Agur are introduced, that we’re supposed to recall two other similar oracles in the Old Testament.

TK: That’s helpful.

JD: So, we have the oracle, the declaration of ha-geber. It’s not the normal word for man. That’s what makes it distinctive. It’s a, geboar means a strong man or a warrior. A geber is a male as opposed to a female, but never in the context of husband and wife. And so, it’s—the focus is, whereas the Hebrew term ish can be used for husband or man, geber doesn’t occur in context where the man is alongside of a woman who happens to be his wife. So, this is a more general term, a specific term for a male. And again, the link between the oracle and the man occurs only three times in scripture, and the two other times are what we’re gonna look at first here. “The oracle of Balaam, the oracle of the man whose eyes were opened,” I’m in Numbers 24, and he goes on to say he portrays Israel like a garden, like palm groves stretched afar, like gardens beside a river. That’s the people of God. And then he says, “Water shall flow from his buckets, and his seed shall be in the waters.” “His” refers to the Lord. So waters are flowing out of the buckets of the Lord, and the Lord’s seed is in many waters, getting spread far and wide. And then it says, “His king shall be higher than Agag. His kingdom shall be exalted. God brings him out of Egypt, and is for him like the horns of a wild ox.” Now, I’ll just pause here and say, God has a king. And this text, this oracle of Balaam, is about a future king. It puts it in the context of future, and it says that he’s higher than Agag in the Hebrew, who happens to be the name of the Amalekite king that Saul in 1 Samuel 15 was supposed to conquer. He’s a symbol of all that is evil and hostile to God. And the king of Israel was commissioned to overcome him, and he failed to overcome him. He didn’t do what he was supposed to do, that’s Saul. But now we have a king who will be higher than Agag. And if Agag is a prediction of the Amalekite king, the point would be that the Amalekite people who were condemned by God from Exodus 17, when Israel was first coming out of Egypt, and it was the Amalekites that met them in the wilderness and sought to completely destroy them, and God said, from this time forward, I declare that I will destroy all of the Amalekites. Now we have God’s king who is higher than Agag, king of the Amalekites. So, that’s one possible reading of this text. Now intriguing, I’ll just add that the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, doesn’t say Agag, it says that God’s king will be higher than Gog. And that’s the same Greek term that’s used of the great superpower in Ezekiel 38, that stands against God’s people and against God at the end of the age. So we’re talking about Agag as a representative of all that is evil, whether Agag the Amalekite or Gog the world superpower, and the image is that in some future day, when God’s Garden of Eden like people are sprouting and his seed is spreading far and wide through his many waters, God’s king will rise and have a great kingdom that topples the greatest enemies of God on earth. And then it says, God brings him out of Egypt. And that’s second Exodus language. And so we now have a new Exodus being predicted, associated with this king. And then it keeps going in Numbers 24, telling us about this end times king. And then it says in verse 14, God breaks away from the oracle and says, “I will let you know what this people will do to your people in the latter days.” So it’s an end times oracle, Tom. And then he goes on to give a more expanded fourth oracle that says, “I see him but not now, I behold him but not near. A star shall come to Jacob, and a scepter shall rise out of Israel. It shall crush the forehead of Moab, and break down all the sons of Sheth. Edom shall be dispossessed. Seir also, his enemies shall be dispossessed. Israel is doing valiantly. And one from Jacob shall exercise dominion and destroy the survivors of cities!” We are envisioning in oracle one, the oracle of the man. We are envisioning a future king who will lead a new exodus, whose life will be associated with a Garden of Eden like flourishing people, who will be like a star rising out of Jacob, and who will exercise dominion and destroy all the enemies of God, leading his people to destroy and overcome the enemies. That’s oracle one in Scripture that is alluded to right from the get-go in Proverbs 30.

TK: And I just want to say there are all sorts of places in this oracle of Balaam that you’d say he’s tying to other passages as well. So, Genesis 49, “He crouched, he lay down like a lioness, like a lioness who will rouse him up?” That there’s allusions to Genesis 12. So this passage is, if you almost want to say it, just dripping with other passages even as you read it. But that thought of “the oracle of the man” here is clearly connected to Israel’s eschatological king, this oracle number one

JD: That’s right. So what was envisioned and predicted in Genesis is then built upon in Numbers, and I’m proposing that the allusion then is now being built upon once again in Proverbs 30. The second example is in 2 Samuel 23, and it’s called the last words of David. But what I want to draw attention to first is that the last words, that term for last, is the same as in the last days. So this is—I mean, I just had a student who proposed, this is actually the end times words of David. Not the final words that he spoke at the end of his life, but rather words that are directly associated with the end of days. And it’s the oracle of the man who was raised concerning the Messiah of God. That’s my reading of 2 Samuel 23. But it then unpacks this discussion of one who “rules justly, whose life is like the dawning of morning light, like the sun on a cloudless morning, like rain that makes grass to sprout from the earth.” So that’s, again, Genesis imagery being drawn in, and what’s associated with this one who judges justly is nothing other than a new creation. It’s like new creation dawning in the morning. And then David recalls, this is what God made promises to me about in relation to the covenant that he set with me, the everlasting covenant. Is not this how my house stands with the Lord? For he has made with me an everlasting covenant. That’s one possible reading there. And the hope is that God will cause the promises given to David, to prosper and flourish in contrast to the worthless one, whom is only mentioned explicitly one other time in the singular, and that’s in the Corinthian correspondence, and it’s a title given to the devil himself. The worthless one is like thorns that are thrown away, another image of the curse, for they cannot be taken by the hand. But the man, that is the one king who will judge justly, the man, who touches these thorns, arms himself with iron, with the shaft of a spear, and they are utterly consumed with fire. All of a sudden, curse is overcome. New creation is flourishing, the curse is overcome, at the fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant promises, we will see one rise, who will overcome the devil and his works, who will overcome the curse and all of its reality. That’s the hope of the Davidic Covenant, and it’s the second oracle of this strongman, oracle of a man in Scripture. Two oracles both related to the Messiah, both associated with the end times. And now we come into this oracle framed at the end of the Book of Proverbs from Agur.

TK: And just want to make a point, so we have something from the law, from Book of Numbers, that’s at least introducing this way of thinking, and because of all these connections, you’re saying this is clearly connected to the last king, the eschatological king. We see it again with David in the Prophets, and now we’re moving to the third section of the Old Testament, the Writings, and we’re seeing at least this same introductory formula. And so I’ve been prepped already to at least be strongly considering this seems to be a possibility.

JD: Correct. Now I enter in and I begin to read this word from God. “I am weary, O God. I’m weary, O God, and worn out. Surely I am too stupid to be a man. I have not the understanding of a man. I have not learned wisdom.” So this is a book about wisdom, and we have here Agour saying, I don’t fully have it down. But then, and I’m going to differ from my ESV here, the ESV says, “Nor have I knowledge of the Holy One,” but the Hebrew doesn’t have a negative. Instead, what we read is, “I have not learned wisdom, but I have knowledge.” And that’s significant. This man, Agur, while claiming to not have at all, he does have a certain knowledge. And that knowledge, it says, is of holy ones. And it’s plural in the Hebrew. In the English text, they rendered it singular, and they’re doing so, I think, because this is talking about God. And even the term for God has a plural ending. It’s as if it’s the God of gods. And so they always render it as gods, but it’s singular because it always has singular verbs. And so I think they said, well, this is referring to him. That’s why it’s plural. But I don’t think that’s the case. Because even the term for God in this text is different than the normal term for God. And it’s explicitly singular, suggesting that the holy ones is intentionally plural. So this Agur has a knowledge of holy ones, plural. More than one. And both of them by nature, in this plural form, are holy. And then he raises a series of rhetorical questions. “Who has ascended to heaven and come down? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has wrapped up the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth?” Then he says, “What is his name? Who has done all these things? And what is his son’s name? Surely, you know.” And then, reaffirming that this is prophecy, “Every word of God proves true. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.” So here, in verse 4, there’s this recollection of creation. “Who has ascended to heaven and come down, reaching up to the heavens and bringing heaven to earth? Who has gathered the wind in his fists?” No mere human can do such a thing. “Who has wrapped all the waters up in a garment? Who established the ends of the earth, from one end to the other? Every mountain peak and every valley, every stream and every plain? Who has made it? You know his name. And you know his son’s name.” Two figures here at the end of the Book of Proverbs. And the only answer to you know his name. Who has established the ends of the earth? It must be Yahweh. It must be God. And then it says, you know his son’s name. And we have to raise the question as we’re the reader of this book. Who is the son of God? And this son has a nature like the father because Agur says, I have knowledge of holy ones. And I think in the context, the only holy ones he can be referring to is Yahweh and his son. And what’s intriguing here, Tom, is the very language of who has established all the earth, who’s wrapped up the waters in the garment. This takes us back to Proverbs 8, earlier in the book, toward the end of the very first unit of parental wisdom. And we read these words, and it’s wisdom. Lady wisdom talking here at the end of this unit. And I’m going to differ at certain points from the ESV, because the ESV changed some things that I find quite unhelpful. “Yahweh possessed me.”

TK: You’re at 22?

JD: That’s right, Chapter 8:22. “Yahweh possessed me, wisdom says. The beginning of His way.” Now the ESV says, at the beginning of His work. But there’s no at in the Hebrew text. And the term rendered work is actually the Hebrew term way. Way meaning God is walking in a certain path, bringing about the creation as we know it. And at the very beginning of His activity, wisdom was there. Wisdom was something possessed by God, not created by God, not fathered by God, possessed, owned, claimed, and one with Him. “The first of His acts of old. As He began to move, everything was starting with wisdom. Ages ago, I was set up.” Now this term set up occurs only one other place in all the rest of scripture, Tom, and that’s in Psalm 2, when the great royal figure, the Son of God, were told, “As for me, I have set up my king on Zion, my holy hill.” It’s what Yahweh claims to have done with the royal son. And it’s associated, we’re told in the New Testament, with Jesus’ resurrection. So, what happens at the end of the age, God appointing Jesus as Son of God through the resurrection, “He obeyed to the point of death, death and across, now God has highly exalted him.” That’s what I believe Psalm 2 is pointing to. That reality of being established was something that was also apparent at the beginning of creation, not only at the second creation, but at the beginning of creation, He was set up, wisdom that is, was set up. Just like that Messianic king would be at the end of the age. Wisdom was God’s appointed representative. “At the first, before the beginning of the earth, when there were no depths, I was put forth. When there were no springs abounding in water, wisdom was there. Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was put forth. I was strengthened.” That is, God was using wisdom at the front end to bring forth all that was. Before He made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world, when He established the heavens, wisdom says, I was there. When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, when He made from the firm the skies above, when He established the fountains of the deep, when He assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress its command, when He marked out the foundations of the earth, then I was beside Him. ESV says, “Like a master craftsman, like a master workman. And I was daily His delight.” So God was delighting in wisdom, delighting in all that was coming forth from wisdom. And then it says, “Wisdom was rejoicing before Him always, rejoicing in His inhabited world, and delighting in the children of man.” So I draw our attention back there, Tom, because it’s referring to the same realities. When God was shaping the world, establishing the ends of the earth, it wasn’t only Yahweh there, it was this manifestation known as wisdom. Something that was apparently with God from the beginning, and the means by which He brought about the earth. Now, what is called wisdom in Proverbs 8, in our text, is referred to as God’s son. You know his name, and what is, or rather, what is his name, and what is his son’s name? Surely, you know. Agur says, I have knowledge of holy ones. Now, the only other place in all of Scripture where this term holy ones shows up in the plural, in this way, as a reference to God, is in Proverbs 9. Right after it’s contrasting Lady Wisdom, who was with God at the beginning, through whom God made the world, and Lady Folly, we read this. “The fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of holy ones is insight.” Now, the ESV says, and knowledge of the Holy One is insight, but it’s the exact same phrase. And in this context, holy ones whom we are to know appears to refer to Yahweh and the wisdom that He possessed at the beginning. Now, at the end of the book, the holy ones are Yahweh and His Son. So it’s suggesting to me that this book is calling us within the framework of the proverbs of Solomon, the Son of David, King of Israel, recalling the promises made to David that he would have a son on the throne forever and that his son would be nothing less than God’s son. Now what we’re reading is that God’s son, the very one who embodies wisdom, is infused with the very character of God Himself. He is holy like God is holy. He is the divine Son. And that this book is setting us up to anticipate one greater than Solomon, to anticipate one who is indeed wisdom embodied. And as we go to the New Testament, Tom, this is exactly how it talks about Christ. Jesus, in Matthew 11, can say, “When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of Christ, he sent word by his disciples saying, Are you the one?” And Jesus’ response to them is this, “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Look at him, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners. Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.” Jesus is telling John, I’m the one. The religious leaders are not recognize it, but will you? Wisdom is justified by her deeds. Jesus, who in chapter 12, at the very next chapter, is going to say something greater than Solomon is here, and he’s referring to himself. He’s identifying himself with the wisdom of Proverbs. He’s identifying himself with Lady Wisdom. Lady Wisdom, I think we’re just supposed to see it. It’s just a figure, a figure designed to help the young men in this book find her attractive, find wisdom desirable. But ultimately, this book says, what you’re ultimately desiring is the Son of God who was promised to David. He is the one, I will be a father to him. He will be my son. He will be a Holy One, right alongside God himself. He was with God established, appointed like a royal figure at the first creation, to oversee all that God was doing. He was with God in the beginning. Indeed, he was God. And he will be established as a royal figure at the end, in the eyes of all who look upon him. He is the wise Son. Jesus Christ is the very wisdom of God. And in him, he becomes our wisdom. Both as standing as our representative before the Father through our justification, and as empowering us to walk in his ways through our sanctification. Jesus Christ, the very wisdom of God, and Agur, knew it. And he was calling the readers here at the end of this book to know this one as well. The embodiment of wisdom who was with God at the beginning, and who will be established as king over all things at the end.

TK: That’s really helpful, Jason. It does something for us in our understanding of this book as well. We talked about this last week, but when we talked about whether this book is general wisdom for all people, or whether in particular this book is directed toward the people of God, toward Christians. And that idea of we cannot disconnect true wisdom from God’s Son, the Lord Jesus. We have no path, no access to it, even though from the world’s perspective we may do wise things at times. That’s not ultimately what this book is driving at.

JD: I think you’re right, Tom. And we need to keep that in mind, step by step. At every step, when we realize in ourselves we were just foolish and not wise. We didn’t act wisely in that moment. We fall back and we rest on the wise one who has come. He is our hope. He is our help and we trust in him. That’s Christ as our justifier, the all wise one, the perfect law keeper. And then we look to that same Christ for power, knowing that he purchased not only our justification, but our sanctification, freeing us from the condemning realities of sin and freeing us from the daily power of sin. So we gain pardon and then we are infused with a power to actually walk the wise life following Jesus’s lead.

TK: I was just talking to someone about the Book of Judges. And the idea in Judges, it says, “In those days there was no king in Israel, and everyone did what was right in his own eyes.” And one of the thoughts I can have is, well, I’m not going to do that anymore. I’m going to do what’s right in God’s eyes. And that certainly would be a right and a noble thought. I’m going to do what’s right in God’s eyes. But the statement in Judges is, “in those days in Israel, there was no king.” That doing what is right in God’s eyes requires actually a king. Or here in Proverbs, it requires God’s Son. And you already connected him to Psalm 2 and the promise that walking in this wise way requires God’s wise Son. And I need to acknowledge that and gladly follow his lead. “My sheep hear my voice. They know me. They follow me. I will never lead them astray.” That whole idea we see in John 10. I am bringing sheep into pasture, out into my safe places, out into fine pasture. They will hear my voice. They will know me. They will follow me. I think we get a circular sort of argument sometimes, which would be—so your argument about the holy ones here, I can think of other passages, even Genesis 1, where it says, “Let us make man in our image.” And the argument can be something like this. The Old Testament writers had no concept of a plurality in the Godhead. Therefore, these passages can’t mean that. And so, and the circular part of that is because I have a built-in assumption that they have no thought of a plurality in God, that God is more than just God the Father. Because I have that baked into my understanding of Old Testament writers, I don’t have a category where they could have “speak of the knowledge of holy ones,” for instance, like you talk about in Proverbs 30:3. Or I can’t imagine Moses writing in Genesis and him having a knowledge that God is more than one.

JD: Right. And what we’re, what I’m proposing and what we’re seeing is that Moses, Solomon, Agur, envisioned holy ones that could be both plural and unified.

TK: Right.

JD: That before there’s any creation, there is God and wisdom. As if wisdom is its own person alongside of God. And in some ways, equal with God in that within the context. Now, by, in some ways, I mean, explicitly in the text, wisdom is associated with God. The first of his ways, wisdom is holy. Wisdom is the means by which everything that we count as something other than God came into being, according to Proverbs 8. And wisdom was with God at the beginning. Here at this season, Tom, we have God with us. It’s the advent of God with us, Immanuel, one who can be called among his four names in Isaiah 9:6, Mighty God. Paul says, “We impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed from before the ages for our glory.” He is imparting what was hidden and is now revealed, a wisdom of God. Yet, he says, “None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory,” the very one that Paul is declaring. He says, right in the same context, he is seeking that people would reach all the riches of full assurance of understanding and of knowledge of God’s mystery, which is Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I said the same context. That’s actually a different book. That’s Colossians 2. “In Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge.” That’s the one we’re talking about. And he is none other than the God man, the one who was with God at the beginning, and who continues with us now.

TK: This is really helpful, Jason. And I think it fits with when we’re reading Proverbs, for instance, and we get to a chapter like Proverbs 8, as believers, those who love the Lord Jesus, we read certain things and we do pause and we say, I feel like the descriptions here match with my Lord. I’m wondering, could this be language that is intentionally speaking one way, but it’s actually applied to the Lord? I think lots of Christians have those sorts of thoughts. So what we’re hearing today is actually that’s not a strange thought to have, and actually the book appears to be pointing that direction.

JD: Both because the whole thrust appears to be to equip noble royal sons, the ultimate royal son being the Christ, and because the text is going out of its way to say, we know that God is the source of our world. He is the one who was there at the beginning, and the one with him was his Son. That is, the one with him was wisdom. So, wisdom was with God at the beginning, and then wisdom is now embodied in the God-man, the Son of God, Jesus himself.

TK: All right. Well, Jason, we talked about going further than this today. I don’t think we should. I think I’d like to save Proverbs 31 if that works for you.

JD: Okay.

TK: I think there’s a lot there, and this has been really helpful.

JD: All right. So, then we will pick up there after the New Year, Tom.

TK: All right. All right. Well, Merry Christmas, and thanks for listening, everyone. It is a joy for Jason, and it’s a joy for me to do this. We love going through God’s Word, and just for you to know, it is as much joy for me. I have my pencil out, and as we’re talking, I’m writing notes in my Bible. I hope you’re finding the same joy, all of you, as you’re hearing, as we’re thinking about God’s Word together.

JD: Amen.

JY: Thank you for joining us for Gear Talk. Be sure to join us next week as we continue our conversation on Proverbs. For resources related to Proverbs, go to our show notes. We’ve included links to resources connected to Proverbs found on both handstotheplow.org and jasonderouchie.com.