JY: Welcome to Gear Talk, a podcast on biblical theology. Today, Jason and Tom continue our series on major characters in the book of Revelation. Today, we’re focusing on Babylon and New Jerusalem. The apostle John clearly wants his readers to think about these two cities. His focus on these cities isn’t to satisfy his readers curiosity. He wants his readers to consider the destinies of these two cities, and to identify with one of these two cities. After a brief introduction of Revelation, Jason and Tom spend the majority of the podcast in the Old Testament. Where does the reader first encounter these cities? How did the prophets think about these cities in their writings?

TK: Good morning, Jason.

JD: Good morning, Tom. Glad to be back at Gear Talk.

TK: I am glad as well. Today we are talking—continuing our series on major characters in the book of Revelation. But it’s not a character, is it?

JD: No, it is a city made up of many characters—two cities actually. We want to consider the relationship of Babylon and Jerusalem within the book of Revelation, considering Old Testament backgrounds leading up to these two cities, a city of man and a city of God. The Old Testament background and New Testament development that leads us to this culminating book, Revelation, and how it approaches these two cities as the main establishments of the two great powers: God’s City, Jerusalem, a heavenly, transformed reality made up of some from every tongue tribe, people and nation who have been redeemed through the blood of the victorious Lamb, and who have conquered by that blood and by the word of their testimony; and then Babylon, Babylon, this city of man controlled by the beast, that is not just a single city, as it were, but a kingdom city that expands the globe, controls and influences, infects, all nations. And it is the central headquarters for the Dragon’s lair, and it is the central means by which he operates in space and time on the earth itself. And so you have this contrast between Babylon and Jerusalem. And we want to unpack that because Revelation is not where that friction, that contrast started. It’s going to take us all the way back, once again, to the Garden of Eden itself, in the earliest chapters of Genesis.

TK: So we’re getting big, big ideas today and what we’re going to do in this podcast is start in just a couple of thoughts in Revelation, but move to the Old Testament to frame up the ideas of why would John use the language of Babylon and Jerusalem in Revelation. Where do those ideas come from? So, Jason, I want to read a statement. This is from our preacher’s guide to Revelation, and that preacher’s guide starts with some thoughts to keep in mind when approaching Revelation. And so #23 in this list of 25 things was this, Revelation is the story of two people groups associated with two cities, Babylon and the New Jerusalem. As Revelation makes clear, Babylon and all of its citizens will be destroyed. The New Jerusalem and all of its citizens will be saved. This city will become the only city on Earth. Agree? Disagree? What are your thoughts there?

JD: Definitely agree. The contrast between Babylon and Jerusalem is a contrast filled with the reality of grief, the need for courage, and unbelievable hope. The very first time we read the language of Babylon in Revelation is in Revelation 14. And it says, “Fallen, fallen is Babylon”—or more directly—“Babylon has fallen, Babylon the great, she who made all the nations drink the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality” (Rev 14:8). So we have a key sin, immoral sex, that is now associated with this figure, who, in Revelation 17, is going to be called the great prostitute, with whom all the nations have given themselves over surrendering themselves in immorality. And the image here is definitely that of spiritual adultery, spiritual fornication. Rather than delighting in intimacy with the creator God, humanity has rebelled and gone in a different direction, given themselves over to what has become a global power that is affecting and infecting all the nations. And that stands in contrast to a city that is in the heavenlies where God reigns, and that reign begins in space and time in Genesis chapter one with God seated over all things and in Genesis, chapter 2, verse four or verse three, enjoying that perfect Sabbath reality. He is at rest with his world. The world is at peace with him. He is seated on the throne over all things. And it’s that throne, which is later identified as a heavenly Jerusalem where the transformed, redeemed remnant people of God have their citizenship.

It is that heavenly Jerusalem that will one day come to earth and, in that process—because the Jerusalem that is above is connected with the King who is above the Lamb himself, ruling and reigning—when he arrives, he will do away with every shadow, every hint of evil Babylon will be overcome. The world power, the world system, social, economic, political will be put down and what will be left is a city filled only with the remnant of the redeemed. So we want to take the next two podcasts to meditate on these features, ultimately celebrating the hope of a day when every tear will pass away, all pain will be no more. There will be no sign of curse, and we will be secure in the walls of a new, heavenly Jerusalem, the gates of which have all the names of the twelve tribes of Israel built upon, it says, the foundation of the apostles and the prophets. And so this is an image of the church. Jerusalem is an image of the church universal made up of local churches as the pillars in this new heavenly city. And the bride is there, that is the people of God the groom is there, that is the Lamb himself. And it is the Lamb who has overcome and those in him, joining him in this ruling and reigning such that now at that future day, Babylon will be no more.

TK: Revelation can feel like—and a lot of us maybe grew up in churches or something—like it’s a book disconnected from the rest of the Bible, and it’s facts to argue about, things to make charts about whatever, but something at least I didn’t grow up thinking is it’s actually a book to be obeyed. And that’s what it says right at the beginning. It says in Revelation 1:3, “Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy.” It’s imagining, for instance, in a church setting a pastor reading it. People don’t own at that point, at least when it was written, their own Bibles in their hands. So somebody’s reading it. A bunch of people are listening, but it says, “And blessed are those who hear and who keep what is written in it for the time is near.” So there’s a keeping part of Revelation and obeying part, that what I hear I’m supposed to process it and have something in me that says I need to obey that. And I think in relation to what we’re talking about today, Revelation really is pointing to these two cities, Babylon—like you’re imagine I’m standing here, to my left is Babylon, to my right is Jerusalem. We’re being shown these and the “keeping” part of Revelation is pick your city, obey what is right and decide to be and to live as a citizen of Jerusalem.

So, where this becomes super clear, and we’ll talk about this more next week, but it says in Revelation 17 verse one an angel came and he “said to me, ‘Come I will show you the judgment of the great prostitute who seated on many waters with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality”—idolatry—“and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk.’ and then he carried me away” (Rev 17:1–3). So that goes on. But then Revelation 21 uses the exact same language. So, Revelation 21:9 says, “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven plagues came and spoke to me saying, ‘Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.’ And he carried me away”. So, we’re being brought to these two places and it’s really clear John is not wanting us to just store these away as, wow that was interesting. We got to see these places. He’s wanting us to form thoughts about where do I connect? What do I love? Where would I like to be a citizen of? What gives me joy and hope? So where am I going to stay? So with that said, Jason, you are an Old Testament professor. One of your students comes up to you and says, well, where’s the story of Babylon? Where is the story of Jerusalem? Where does it even come from? Can you start the story of these two cities for us, because obviously John is picking up on things from the Old Testament. And he’s blowing these stories up. But that’s where he got it from. So how does this story start?

JD: Well, the story truly starts in a garden. But it is a garden where humanity resides. And in doing so, it is the first city, a city where humans are supposed to rule and reign as representatives of God himself. So, Genesis 1:27, when God makes man “in his image, male and female, he created them,” he commissions this first couple to be ever expanding to fill the earth, multiply and subdue (Gen 1:28). Not only that, in chapter 2, before the woman is even created, God commissions the first man as the head of all humanity—that is, the representative head, where Adam goes the rest of humanity will go—and the commission is that he would—after God, places him in the garden, God calls him to serve and guard the ground. It says to serve it and keep it (Gen 2:15). And in English it looks like that it is the garden, but garden is masculine and the “it,” the pronoun, is actually feminine, so it reaches all the way back to the ground from which Adam was taken. So, he’s placed in the garden, where he will enjoy the presence of God. He is the image, like an image in a temple. Yet it’s not a physical idol, it’s an actual person. And he will be linked with a woman. They are the first couple of all humanity in God’s kingdom, and they are to multiply, creating a kingdom family that will become kingdom families and become a kingdom community. But the Garden of Eden, on top of a mountain—all the rest of the Bible portrays God’s location on the top of a mountain, but even in Genesis chapter 2 there’s a river that flows out of Eden, so it’s flowing out, meaning Eden is high, it flows out of Eden and becomes four rivers that spread throughout the four corners of the globe, showing that the rivers of life were always intended to reach outward.

TK: And what was necessary for growth to happen had come out of this garden. So Adam wouldn’t be able to say you didn’t provide what was needed for this garden to grow, the water of life was there.

JD: Right. The garden had—the water of life was there, the presence of God was there, the instruction of God was there. And then the instruments through which God desired—through his special revelation, what he had clarified was instruction for humanity, not only to enjoy every tree but the tree of the knowledge pertaining to good and evil, lest they die, but also to be instruments wherein this government would this garden would be ever expanding because the role was that he would serve and guard not simply the garden itself, but the ground, the ground from which he was taken, which was outside the garden. So, God created everything good, but it was not yet complete. It wasn’t yet finished, and the vision always was that the glory of God embodied in the people of God would fill the earth like the waters cover the sea, that there would be an ever-expanding garden, and with that an ever-expanding city where the community would exist—a community under God representing revering, reflecting, representing God on earth. So the garden and city imagery, I think, starts right in Genesis 1, Genesis chapter 2.

But then we come to Genesis 3 and what do we get? We get the fall. The fall requires exile from this garden city. And sin separates humans from the life-giving presence of God. So they are exiled from this presence, but before they’re even kicked out, God makes that Genesis 3:15 promise that he would raise up in a new image bearer, one who would properly revere, reflect, resemble, represent God on the earth. And in doing so, he would truly guard. That is, he would protect by overcoming the hostility that Adam and Eve had succumbed to. The serpent himself, that dragon would be overcome by this individual, and so the implication is that if Adam and Eve gave up the garden city, he would somehow reclaim it. And indeed, when we get to the end of the story in the book of Revelation, what we have is a return to the garden city. Not only is—and there, it’s called Jerusalem, because in the progress of redemption, Jerusalem is going to be the name attached to God’s central sanctuary on earth. But it’s also called paradise. This is a Garden City that is—now it’s not just Jerusalem being in the new earth, I believe Jerusalem is the new Earth. The city has filled all, completing the original vision. But what we get for example Revelation 2:7 “To him, who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the paradise of God.” All of a sudden we have a return, and this is Jesus himself, the great conquering lamb who is declaring to the churches, to him who conquers, you’ll get to enjoy Paradise once again. You’ll get to eat from the tree of life. It’s in that day, Revelation 11:15, that the kingdom of the world will have become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ. And we’re told he shall reign forever and ever. Revelation 22:3, 5, “No longer in that day, will anything be accursed. But the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him…. The night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun,”—why?—“For the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever more.” So, this is the story completed.

TK: There’s a lot there that we’ll unpack more next week because clearly in Revelation and the book of Hebrews you’re getting an idea of a of a heavenly Jerusalem, but you made statements about Jerusalem filling the earth, and you mean this earth, don’t you?

JD: I do because we’re not only anticipating a new heaven, but a new earth. And as we’re going to see next week, that Earth will be filled with the glory of God, absolutely secure. And I believe Revelation 21 and 22, building off of Isaiah 65, treats the New Jerusalem the bride of the Lamb that embodies all the remnant people of God that we know of as the church. This city is not just one location in the new Earth. It is indeed everything. The city-garden of God, the garden city, has filled all in fulfillment of the original call to fill the earth, multiply, and subdue. That’s the story on one side of what’s going to be called Jerusalem. It is the ultimate fulfillment of the original commission given to the first couple.

TK: And you’re going to argue here, I know it, but the first time we in our English Bibles, hear the word. Babylon is later than you would say it actually appears in the Hebrew text. Correct?

JD: That’s right. So, after the fall, man is exiled, the wickedness of man is very evident, and as people expand across the globe, in different spheres, it’s wickedness, it’s wickedness such that has to punish at the flood. And amid the flood he renews his covenant that he established at the beginning, and he does so in a context of the Genesis 3:15 promise. The common grace that he gives to all the world that he’s going to withhold his judgment—that’s why the rainbow. It’s just the bow. His bow is in the sky pointed up rather than down. His judgment is not toward the earth. And that’s on whether you’re just or unjust, whether you’re good or whether you’re evil, whether you’re part of the remnant or part of the rebel. God is withholding his wrath so that there can now be a context wherein saving grace—ultimately through the seed of the woman and the seed of Abraham—can come. Saving grace through the person of Jesus is able to enter into the darkness of the world because of the Noahic covenant.

After the Noahic Covenant, there were three sons of Noah, and we’re told that one of them, Ham, had a son named Nimrod, who built a city that our English Bibles usually renders as Babel. But it’s the exact same term for Babylon, and it is at the Tower of Babylon, that is a temple, that these people constructed to reach up to the heavens to make a name for themselves. And ironically, God has to come down—so they didn’t reach the heavens—he has to come down to see it, and he punishes them in Genesis Chapter 11, and he scatters these three families, out through the globe. He alters their language and it’s from this point that we get nations. In fact, Genesis chapter 10 numbers them seventy different nations and with all these various languages, and this is the result of Babylon. It’s as if there is a Babylonian exile, and all of the world is in it under this Babylonian judgment, all of them influenced by the sins of Babel. And it’s spread across the globe. And so for God to ultimately fulfill his vision of building a global, garden city, it will take him overcoming the Babylonian curse. It will take him entering into a world of darkness and bringing deliverance in a way that could create a new city amidst a sea of Babylonian treachery, defilement, pride, selfishness, and brokenness.

TK: So if I read the Genesis 11 story and the scattering that happens at the end and I have a thought, oh that solved that problem within mankind. You’re saying no, that’s missing what happened. That part is missing. It didn’t solve that because it just scattered the Babylonians everywhere.

JD: No, it didn’t in the—that’s right—in the same way that before the flood, God saw that every intention of the thoughts of the heart were only evil. In the same way, after the flood, eight people is all that are left on the planet. Noah, his wife, their three sons and their wives, eight people, and Noah comes off the ark, and God declares again, “I will never curse”—oh, he says—“I will never curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth” (Gen 8:21). In the same way that after the flood judgment the hearts of humans had not changed, and had not God brought the Noahic Covenant, declaring that he wouldn’t punish, he would have had to punish because the wickedness of man’s hearts are the same. The judgment of God at the Tower of Babel did not overcome the wickedness of their hearts. All it did is it made it more difficult now, because of the multiplication of languages and the spreading out of the peoples to the four corners of the planet—that spreading out and the change in languages meant it was much more difficult for humanity to unite, as a whole, in rebellion against God. And so God would be able to raise up a gospel. Indeed, that’s what Paul calls the declaration and promises in Genesis chapter 12.

So Genesis 11 is the Tower of Babel, where the families of the Earth are judged, and then it’s in Genesis chapter 12, God reaches down into one of those families into one of the seventy nations and raises up an individual named Abraham, commissions him to go to a specific land. And then says, “Through you all the families”—using the very same term that we just see at the very end of chapter ten of those who were scattered. The very families that were scattered, God says through you, Abraham, “All the families of the earth of the ground (that was cursed), all the families of the ground will be blessed” (Gen 12:3). So this is a massive promise. It’s a massive shift and God declares in the sea of seventy nations, he’s going to make Abraham into one nation and that through Abraham, all the families, three of them, which multiplied into seventy nations, all the families of the ground will regard themselves—will be blessed in Abraham. And ultimately it’s in Abraham’s seed. But Paul in Galatians 3:8, reaching back, says, “The scripture proclaimed the gospel to Abraham.” In that moment, good news entering into a world of darkness, confronting a city of Babylon that is now spread across the globe. God will indeed, through Abraham and his offspring, ultimately raise up a new city and through that city, good news for all nations.

TK: So we’ve got this scattering that still didn’t change people’s hearts because that heartbeat of let’s make a name for ourselves, and because of that, not do what God said, not be fruitful and multiply in the way he said and fill the earth instead let’s become gods ourself. This becomes the representative city name for the people opposed to God. Is that fair to say so? So when we later on meet Babylon and we say, oh, there’s the only place it is where Daniel is and things like that. Would you say, no, it was a bigger picture than that all along, that just represented it.

JD: Right. Yeah, it seems by the time we get to the Old Testament prophets, they are building both on the reality that what started in this city, the original city of Babylon, has spread across the globe such that that very language of Babylon becomes the representative title for all earthly power opposed to God. Matching that is this ultimate hope that through Abraham, God is going to overcome this global curse-problem that the prophets are able to associate with Babylon. I think of two texts, for example, Isaiah 13, it’s an oracle against Babylon proper.

TK: What’s an oracle, Jason?

JD: A prophetic word against—well, a prophetic word that’s what an oracle is. It could be a word of curse. It could be a word of blessing. And God speaks through the prophet Isaiah. And looks ahead to the nation of Babylon that would ultimately bring an end to Jerusalem in 587, God looks ahead to them and portrays them as an image of all that is evil. They are representative of all that is against God and his ways. “I will punish the world,” God says, “for it’s evil.” It’s a broad, broad category, not limited to single city.

TK: Isaiah 13:11.

JD: Yep, “I will punish the world for its evil and the wicked for their iniquity; I will put an end to the pomp of the arrogant and lay low the pompous pride of the ruthless.” So it’s this global vision. And then in verse 19, God narrows in, and “Babylon the glory of kingdoms, the splendor and pomp of the Chaldeans will be like Sodom and Gomorrah when God overthrew them.” So the representative ultimate was Babylon. And all the evil is now associated with that people group with that entity, that city. Similarly, in Jeremiah 50:12–13, we read this, “Behold [Babylon] shall be the last of the nations, a wilderness, a dry land, the desert. Because of the wrath of the Lord, she shall not be inhabited, but shall be in utter desolation.” Then in verse 28, “They flee and escape from the land of Babylon, to declare in Zion the vengeance of the Lord our God, vengeance for his temple.” Babylon is this depiction of what is evil, and in a text like Zephaniah, we could add this Zephaniah.

TK: Hang on, hang on one second. So, Jason, would you say Isaiah is looking at the day when the Persians will overcome Babylon? Or is he seeing further than that is—same with Jeremiah—are they seeing further or are they seeing near term or are they seeing long term or they seeing both?

JD: I think they see Babylon of their days and in Isaiah, Babylon was not the problem, Assyria was the problem. Babylon was small, Assyria was great. But Isaiah foresaw the day when Babylon would be the ultimate enemy. And not only that, he recognized that it would be Babylon that would overcome Israel herself. Babylon would overcome Jerusalem and it was that ultimate end of Old Covenant Israel that allowed Babylon to be viewed as this representative, dominant evil. Because it’s this enemy that will bring an end to the first temple, the capital that had all this long history stretching back. We have to remember, and we hopped over this a little bit, but it’s important to recognize Abraham was promised to be the father of a single nation. He would be—God would make him into a nation. So you have Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, who has twelve sons. And through Jacob, we have the twelve tribes of Israel that end up receiving the promised land. And in Genesis, Genesis 15:18, Genesis 12:1, Genesis 17:8, the land, singular, is promised to Abraham and it’s associated with what we what would become the Old Covenant, the old Mosaic Covenant, and the land is the promised land. Initially the place where the twelve tribes are. But the land itself would stretch out even more in the days of David and Solomon reaching from the River of Egypt all the way up to the Euphrates. And that’s what was promised in Genesis 15:18, and it’s fulfilled in the days of Solomon and David.

And yet also in Genesis, Abraham is not only promised to be the father of one nation, the day would come—associated with this deliverer seed of Abraham, this royal figure in the line of Judah—in his day Abraham would move from being the father of one nation to many nations. In his day, Abraham’s turf would move from land singular to many lands, plural as this individual seed-offspring would possess enemy gates and—so that’s Genesis 22:17–18—and through him, all the nations among those seventy that were cast out at Babel, all the nations would regard themselves blessed in this individual seed. And Genesis 26:3–4, the very land into which Isaac was supposed to live and dwell, God promises he would make that land into lands and it would happen in association to the offspring in whom all the nations of the earth would regard themselves blessed. So the prophets have that in their backdrop too. When Isaiah is talking, when Jeremiah is talking, they’re envisioning the downfall of Stage 1, where Abraham was the father of only one nation in the land of Canaan. They’re envisioning that it’s the Babylonians who would overcome that particular land.

TK: But they know a bigger story is taking place.

JD: But they know a bigger story, exactly, and it would be after this time of Babylon’s overcoming, that God would raise up this individual seed of Abraham and seed of the woman in the line of Judah—ultimately we know he’s in the line of David—God would raise him up, and it’s in his day that all of a sudden enemy turf would begin to be claimed. We would move from land to lands. Abraham would become the father of many nations. And all of a sudden, the global curse, the Babylonian exile of the world that is typologically foretasted—so it’s pictured in the Babylonian exile of Israel. But Israel is representative of the world, and through Israel God said that he would—his vision was that they would be in a kingdom of priests and a holy nation among all the nations that God would use them as the channel through which all the nations of the earth would be blessed. But ultimately it doesn’t come through a people, it comes through a person who represents that people, the ultimate son of David, the ultimate individual, Israelite—Jesus. He is the one who would overcome the Babylonian exile not only of Israel but of the world. And in Zephaniah chapter three, we see a foretaste of this in the way it portrays the reversal of the Tower of Babel. And it uses imagery of a multi-ethnic peoples gathered into the presence of God calling upon his name, and they’re called—the worshippers are called God’s dispersed ones.

TK: So you’re saying if I have in mind Babel, what happened at the first Babylon, you’re saying Zephaniah is doing—showing me the opposite in 3:9–10.

JD: That’s right. In Zephaniah 3:9–10, what is happening is the dispersed ones from the peoples, it’s peoples plural, not people singular. Where we have peoples who have been dispersed, and it says that they will call upon him with a pure tongue, a pure lip, and the only other passage in the Old Testament where we have this language of language or lip and a name and dispersion—those three categories only appear in Genesis 11 and Zephaniah 3. And so I think Zephaniah is envisioning a day when Babylon, that is the Tower of Babel, all of its global influence that sent the world into a Babylonian curse, it will be reversed. And God will be doing a global work of renewal and transformation. So it’s not only that the prophets have in mind the story of Babylon, and envisioned the day when Babylon will be overcome. They also are building off of this image of the garden city. Always there was the vision that when Israel, who I already said was a picture of the rest of the world—they’re supposed to be the instrument, a new humanity was supposed to start with Israel. Through them, God would begin to influence, affect for good, all the surrounding nations. And at the center of Israel was going to be a central sanctuary, a place where God would make his presence known. And when they—Israel arrives in the promised land, which is like a new garden of Eden, and Israel is a first born son of God, like a new Adam, they have their paradise, they’re…

TK: Just stop right there. I think that’s where it really helps when they talk about like a land flowing with milk and honey, we’re supposed to say, as readers, that sounds like Eden, because you’re supposed to make that connection.

JD: We’re supposed to recognize that Israel is like a new humanity. Like Adam was the first-born son of God, Israel is called the first-born son of God in Exodus chapter 4. And like Adam was created outside of the garden and then placed into the garden, Israel is created outside the garden through the Red Sea. Redemption, and then they’re placed into their garden, their paradise, their promise land. And like Adam was kicked out, so too, Israel would ultimately be kicked out.

TK: That’s really good.

JD: But now God is working in developing a new global people through a new Israelite and one day he will give us our new land. And that’s part of this story. That new land is associated with the New Jerusalem. So I think it’s important here as we wrap up this podcast to end meditating on how the hope of freedom within many of the prophets, the hope of freedom is viewed to be accomplished by the Messiah, who would redeem what is cast as a bride, and that bride’s name is Jerusalem. So Jerusalem is there. There’s two different kinds of Jerusalem and Paul in Galatians chapter 4 actually unpacks this, and he associates the Jerusalem of his day—the Jerusalem on the ground in the Middle East—he associates that with the old covenant that has brought death to Israel and—because it was filled with idolatry, and it was overcome by Babylon—it brought death. And he associates that with the Old Covenant, and he calls his Christian readers to not think about the earthly Jerusalem, but to think about the heavenly Jerusalem, where their citizenship is.

And indeed, even in Galatians chapter 4, he’s going to say it’s Jerusalem that is above, not the Jerusalem that’s below, the Jerusalem that is above is our mother. So that’s a fascinating language that suggests that we have a father, an eternal father—and that’s one of the names that are given, that one of the names that is given to the Davidic king in Isaiah chapter 9. So I want us to think about Isaiah’s vision of the Messiah, who is an eternal father who has a bride named Jerusalem. As we wrap things up here in Isaiah chapter 2, we see God speak of his city, but it’s not the city of Isaiah’s day, it’s a transformed city. “It shall come about in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the Lord,”—there’s that mountain imagery that’s where God dwells, it’s like a new Eden—it will “be established as the highest of the mountains and all the nations will flow to it. Indeed, many peoples will come and say, ‘Let us go up to the mountain of the house of the Lord. To the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.’ For out of Zion will go the law, the word of the Lord from Jerusalem” (Isa 2:2–3). So this is a transformed Jerusalem, a Zion that has experienced transformation by its being elevated in the eyes of all the world such that the nations are going to want to gather to it.

TK: And obedient people want to walk in God’s ways.

JD: And be obedient. That’s right. And as we move through Isaiah, what we find out is the law that is going forth from Jerusalem is actually being taught by one called the Servant. This royal anointed Servant of God is the agent through whom the law of God is being proclaimed. And so that means that the nations are actually gathering to this messianic figure. When we get to a passage like Isaiah 49, what we read is that this figure will be—who is called God’s Servant, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified” (Isa 49:3). But he’s not Israel the people, he’s Israel a person because it says, “It’s too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you a light for the nations” (Isa 49:6). So, Israel, the Servant of God, the Servant-person is going to save Israel the people. But it’s not only the people he will save; he will save the nations as God’s salvation reaches the ends of the Earth, the very places where those in the first Babylonian exile were scattered, taking that pride, that selfishness, that sinfulness to the ends of the earth. Now light is going to pierce into the darkness through this person, and wherever his kingdom goes, he’s claiming it, and it says that his salvation is going to reach all the way to the ends of the earth. In Isaiah 53, that great chapter where the Servant sacrificially gives himself in a substitutionary way for the many, many from among the nations that includes Jews, but also gentiles. It says that if he will but offer himself as a guilt offering, he shall see offspring, indeed, he shall see and be satisfied (Isa 53:10–11). At the cross, Jesus is motivated by a joy set before him, and that joy includes offspring. So the Servant who is suffering in Isaiah 53 is now associated with offspring, and yet we know that he never had a physical wife, so these must be spiritual seed. In the very next chapter, this is what’s significant.

TK: And just to make a point here, the fact that he’s seen the offspring means even though he was offered as a sacrifice, he is living.

JD: He’s resurrected. That’s right. He is living and he’s enjoying those offspring. And it was the sight of those offspring through his death, looking through his death to the other side of his death, knowing that it would satisfy God’s wrath and he would conquer death and rise from the grave and purchase through that substitutionary sacrifice a people, a community he would be able to redeem them from those who were once exiled under Babylonian darkness. He would be able to redeem them. In the very next chapter, it says, “Sing O barren one who did not bear”—so a barren one who hasn’t given birth is all of a sudden able to rejoice—“for the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married. Enlarge the place of your tent, let the curtains of your habitation be stretched out; don’t hold back; lengthen your cords … for you will spread abroad … and your offspring will possess the nations” (Isa 54:1–3)

So let me explain what we have here. We have a location who is also a person. It’s a barren one who is like a barren city that for years has not produced and stands in contrast to another city, another person who was married. There’s a parable going on here, or what we might call an allegory, an allegory of Sarah—in Genesis who was ninety years old, and God promises I’m going to give you a son. She had gone a long, long time without a wife—I’m sorry without a child and she had been barren and it looked like she would never produce. This is like the history of Israel, they were supposed to be the agent that would give birth to blessing reaching the ends of the earth—through Abraham, all the nations of the earth were to be blessed. And centuries went by and there was no production.

TK: And they never did. Yep.

JD: In contrast, Israel herself is compared to Hagar, this maid servant whom Abraham married. She was productive in and of herself but didn’t produce promise. This is what I believe is envisioned, and yet the day is coming when there will be offspring of the barren woman who will possess the nations. And having just learned about the offspring of the Servant in Isaiah 53, this barren one appears to be the bride of the Servant. And by the time we get to the end of Isaiah, he actually names the barren one. He said, “Before she was in labor, she gave birth”—this is Isaiah 66:7. “Before her pain came upon her, she delivered a son (somehow), and who has heard of such a thing” that before the labor pains, a child would be born. But then it says, “For as soon as Zion”—there’s Jerusalem was—“in labor, she brought forth her children.” Isaiah 66:10, “Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her all who love her, rejoice with her in joy all who mourn over her, that you may nurse and be satisfied from her consoling breast; that you may drink deeply with delight from her glorious abundance.” Jerusalem is a mother, and the call is will you be her children and suckle from her breast. Jerusalem is a mother.

TK: Yeah. Will you love Jerusalem? Like we said earlier, John in Revelation is saying, here are the two cities, here are their destinies: choose one. But it’s not just choose, it’s love one.

JD: Yes, like a child loves his mother. In Galatians chapter 4, lest someone think I’m off in how I’m reading Isaiah, this is exactly how Paul reads this particular text. He says the story of “Abraham was written allegorically”—I don’t think it should be interpreted allegorically, but it was—this was written allegorically. There’s two women, Sarah and Hagar, they represent two covenants, this is Galatians 4:24, “One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery, she’s Hagar. Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children”—a Babylonian exile—“But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. For it is written,”—and then Paul cites Isaiah 54—“Rejoice, O barren, one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one, will be more than those of the one who has a husband.”

So I think what Paul is saying is that, Christians, your citizenship is elsewhere. You have been identified with the Heavenly Jerusalem but know this, you’re still living in Babylon. But don’t focus on the Jerusalem that is below, which is associated with death and the old covenant. It’s associated with those who did not embrace Jesus as the Messiah. The heavenly one has come down to create a heavenly kingdom that, as we’ll see next week, will one day come to earth. And Paul sees this story of a transformed bride of the Servant, the messianic Servant whom we know of as Jesus, they together have offspring. It looked like the bride of God would never produce. Centuries went by, and the promises given to Abraham were not fulfilled. But now through Jesus a new city has been birthed. It’s a transformed city that includes some from every tongue, tribe, people, and nation—multiple nations possessed by the offspring. And ultimately, they stand against the Babylon of earth. And the apostles and prophets in the New Testament, who give us our books, are going to meditate on these two themes—as we’re going to see next week—and see them being brought together in the person of Christ during the church age all the way up into Christ’s second appearing as we see the story that started in Genesis of two cities, a garden city of God that was to expand and fill the earth, versus a city of man that fills the earth and curse—we’re going to see this battle play out and see the Lamb and his people ultimately overcome.

TK: Do you think, Jason, as I’m reading Isaiah, as I’m reading Jeremiah, are they wanting me to fall in love with that city? Like are they doing what John did? Saying take a look at the city to come when they’re talking about in the latter days, this will happen. And are they wanting that to kindle in my heart?

JD: I think they are. Let me give you two examples where—and we’ll end here—where it appears the prophets are saying there’s more, there’s more. And so we end up recognizing to be true what the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews chapter 11, these all died in faith not having—or having seen what was promised and yet having greeted it from afar, indeed, they knew that there was a city prepared for them, whose architect and builder was God (Heb 11:10, 13–15). It’s something more, the vision was greater.

So here’s the two texts that I’ll draw attention to as we close. In Jeremiah chapter 3, speaking to Old covenant saints, where all of their world was supposed to be centered in Jerusalem at the center of which was the temple, and at the center of that, at the heart of that, being the Holy of Holies where the throne of God was, that Ark of the Covenant in which was the two tablets, the law of the Old Covenant. In Jeremiah 3:16 and 17, God promises that after he has restored them from exile, that in that day, it will no longer be said “‘the ark of the covenant of the Lord.’ It will not come to mind.” The ark of God was the central image of the Old Covenant, and in it were the Ten Commandments. This represented the Old Covenant. But the day is coming when the Old Covenant will be no more. And then he says this, “At that time, Jerusalem shall be called the throne of Yahweh and all the nations will gather to it and will no longer follow the stubbornness of their own hearts.” So the throne of God was the ark of the covenant, but now it says all the city Jerusalem will be the throne of God. That means all the city Jerusalem will replace the ark of the covenant. This is a vision of a new covenant era and what was in the ark of the covenant—the tablets of stone. And yet now—New Covenant, Jeremiah 31:33—it’s the people who will have the law written on their hearts. And who are these people? It’s all who have gathered to the New Jerusalem. It’s a transformed Israel of God. As it says in Jeremiah 12:16 that those once evil neighbors will be built up into the midst of God’s people, so that when we get to Jeremiah 31 and we read that God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, it’s a house of Israel that is associated with a transformed Jerusalem that is now considered in its whole the ark of God, and in its whole has a mixed people in it. It’s been transformed.

And this leads me to the final text, Psalm 78. It’s such an amazing—sorry, Psalm 87 is what I meant. Psalm 87, it says “Great things are foretold of you. O Jerusalem” (Ps 87:3). And then it begins to unpack what is foretold of Jerusalem, and you said do the prophets want Israel to look ahead and anticipate this great, you know, rebirth, this transformation, something beyond the present day Jerusalem? And that’s exactly what I believe that God wanted them to do. As it says, “Great things are told of you, O City of God”—glorious things—“among those who know me I mention Rahab and Babylon; behold Philistia and Tyre, with Cush — ‘This one was born there,’ they say. And of Zion it shall be said, ‘This one and that one were born in her”; for the Most High himself will establish her. The Lord records as he registers the peoples”—plural—“‘This one was born there” (Ps 87:3–6).Where? In Jerusalem. Those who were once nations, with addresses in Babylon spiritual Babylon, are going to gain new birth certificates declaring no you weren’t born in Babylon, you have a new identity with a new name, your address, the new transformed Jerusalem. But it’s not the Jerusalem that is below. It’s the Jerusalem that is above that will one day fill all things. A citizenship that is with God through Jesus and just as it says here, these people, groups of the ancient world, Rahab, which is Egypt, Babylon, Philistia, Tyre, Cush, no, that’s not where the—that’s not who they are. They’ve gained new identities. This one and that one, we’re born in you. Glorious things are spoken of you, O city of God. So that that’s what we’re talking about. That’s the Old Testament vision where the city of man will be overcome by the city of God, by the Messiah and his work among a redeemed remnant of those hoping in him.

TK: It’s beautiful. Although as you read it, I was thinking—and as you read Jeremiah—if I didn’t like that vision, if I didn’t like the vision of somebody who actually lived in Egypt or Babylon claiming Jerusalem, these would be—I would hate what I was reading right here. Or the idea of if you said to me there will come a day when the ark is gone, you can see why the prophets would be loved by some and would be hated by some. Because these are not neutral words.

JD: That’s right. And it reminds me, even as we think about current events, to be praying for Jewish believers, be praying for Palestinian believers who are seeking to hold fast in a very, very challenging situation, may their hope be in the heavenly citizenship and may they have courage and boldness to face whatever the dragon—who is the one who is prone to death, and it’s the context of curse that demands wars and rumors of wars to—may we be praying for them that they would not fear what they are about to suffer. I’m thinking of Revelation 2:10, “Behold the devil is about to throw some of you into prison that you may be tested and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.” There is a beastly work that’s happening in the world and Babylon stretches the globe and the Beast is working, and Babylon is riding upon the beast, going where it leads and. And right now, there’s a bite happening in the Middle East, and we need to pray that God, God’s light, would pierce into darkness, that he would help those who are of the light and those who are believers to be strong in their commitment, dedicated to their profession. And that their hope would be real in the midst of a very, very dark setting.

TK: Amen, Amen. All right, Jason. Well, I look forward to next week. Moving from here into the New Testament and how the Apostles consider considered these things and then Revelation where it wraps up there.

JD: Sounds good, Tom.

TK: Alright, talk to you then.

JY: Thank you for joining us for Gear Talk. Make sure you visit our show notes for a link to our preacher’s guide to the book of Revelation. We’ve also included a link so you can sign up for our newsletter. Next week, we’ll bring you Part 2 of this focus on Babylon and the New Jerusalem.