JY: Welcome to GearTalk, a podcast on biblical theology. Today we’re playing another interview we recorded at the Evangelical Theological Society annual meeting in San Diego. This podcast features Tom and Jason, along with Lance Kramer and Ian Valancourt. Ian shares his story today. The story involves, as we might expect in a Canadian scholar, a few references to hockey. We know the Lord’s work in Ian’s life will encourage you. This podcast was recorded outside, so be prepared for a little background noise. When you’re done listening, be sure to check out our show notes for links to Ian’s books.

TK: All right, welcome to Geartalk. Tom and Jason, we have Lance Kramer with us. Jason, who else is with us today?

JD: We have a growing dear friend of mine, Ian Valancourt. Actually, how do you say your last name?

IV: Valancourt.

JD: Just Valancourt.

IV: Yeah.

JD: See, we’ve never talked about this. I don’t even know how you know how to say my last name.

IV: I actually asked one of your students.

JD: Okay, what did they say?

IV: They said DeRouchie.

JD: DeRouchie it is.

IV: Yeah.

JD: Yeah, so I have my dear lifelong friend, Ian Valancourt. Actually, Ian and I have known each other for several years, and we have a similar mentor in our lives, and that is Stephen Dempster, and both of us just came from a presentation that Stephen gave. Not just us, he gave it to a big room filled with people. But Ian has a sweet story, and we thought it would serve our readers to engage him. He is a fellow Old Testament professor. He is a lover of all things Scripture and Jesus, and so in that sense, very like-minded. And he also loves the church, and we’re going to get to talk about that a little bit.

TK: Love it. And we have Lance Kramer sitting with us, who has been on the podcast, but Lance, why don’t you say what your connection with now these two men is right now, because it’s pretty significant.

LK: Yeah, I just finished my last class in my doctoral studies, and both of these men will be readers for my dissertation. So I’m really thankful for that opportunity to continue to learn from them and have them tear me apart.

IV: Looking forward to that part of mine.It’ll be something fun during my sabbatical.

JD: Oh, no.

JD: This is good. This is good.

IV: I have time on my hands.

TK: Love it. All right, well, Ian, it’d be fun to hear your story a little bit.

IV: Sure.

TK: I think that’s the goal today. We were laughing when you came in, actually, because Lance and I were sitting down earlier waiting for these two while they were in their private seminar, and I got an email from an academia website, and I had a journal article from you, which actually this would, let’s see if I can, do you remember the title of this article? Can you recite it?

IV: Yeah.

TK: Yeah. I’m looking at it, so I’ll tell you if you did it wrong.

IV: Formed in the crucible of messianic angst, the eschatological shape of the Hebrew Psalter’s final form. Is that good?

TK: That, you nailed it.

IV: I took a long time to come up with that back in 2013.

JD: Yeah, that’s a lot. But 2013.

IV: Yeah, that’s my first article.

JD: That’s not too long ago.

IV: That’s my first article.

JD: So that’s, we’re looking at 11 years ago, and you had a lot of life before that.

IV: Yeah.

JD: So, whereas I went through college sensing a call to vocational ministry, went off to graduate school, not sure whether it would be the academy or a local church, and then I went straight into my Ph.D. after my graduate studies, had a chance to serve in pastoral ministry during that window, but then taught right away. That’s not your story.

IV: No.

JD: So, give us a little taste of Ian.

IV: All right. Well, I became, God saved me when I was 19. I was a college dropout working at Home Depot, and God opened my heart to believe, and gave me hope. He gave me joy.

TK: Would you say you lacked, did you lack that before?

IV: Yeah. Yeah. And I went to Bible college. I audited a course four months later, and I did not read, I read one book in high school. It was Wayne Gretzky’s autobiography. So, at least it was a classic.

JD: you were a hockey boy, man. That’s good.

TK: What country are you from?

IV: Canada.

TK: Okay, yeah, this is—

JD: Did you grow up in Toronto?

IV: I grew up, before I was nine, we moved around. We lived in Western Canada, like Wayne Gretzky, Edmonton Oilers fan, lived in Alberta. And then when I was nine, we moved to Oshawa, which is just east of Toronto.

JD: Okay.

IV: And that’s my dad’s hometown, so I grew up there. And, but anyway, so God saved me when I was 19, audited a course, and I was not, I didn’t know how to read well. I just knew I wanted to know Jesus. And the following fall, a year after becoming a Christian, I went to Bible college for a year, expecting, I just want to grow as a Christian. And I was telling one of you guys earlier, one year Bible college turned into 12. And I, after that first year, I transferred schools to Tyndale in Toronto. And my roommate, he was in his last semester, and he wanted to mentor me, so he asked me to be roommates. And his name’s Ryan Fullerton, and he introduced me to the ministry of John Piper. And at that massively formative time in my Christian walk, I was hearing God-centeredness, Christian life is joy, and I just, I bit, hook, line, and sinker. It was just massively formative for me. And then we were at a church, our pastor was mentored by Tim Keller, and this was before Tim Keller was writing anything. And so I was hearing on Sunday expository preaching, Reformed theology, apologetics, and evangelism, and I was seeing people from, they’re just dead in sin and locked in sin, coming and welcomed, but not affirmed in sin, and then seeing them exploring the gospel and watching regeneration take place, watching them saved. And that was also hugely formative for me.

So, my wife says, when she met me, someone said something about me, and she said, isn’t that the guy who always rollerblades and listens to John Piper tapes on his Walkman? Isn’t that that guy?

JD: That’s awesome.

TK: Are you still that guy?

IV: Not a Walkman.

LK: But definitely rollerblades.

IV: Yeah. I haven’t rollerbladed in a while. I’m 47 now. With bad knees. But no, yeah, so that period, and went through my undergrad, and I discovered a love for studying the Scriptures academically that I did not see coming as a guy who only read one book in high school. And I was known as the guy who was always in the library, and it was just wonderful, and learning about the centrality of the local church through my local church, and then studying the Scriptures academically, deeply, and then seeing that applied all the time in the local church, leading evangelistic small groups for unbelievers to explore Christ, preaching my first sermons, discerning a call to ministry.

And then during the time in my undergrad, I would say there was a struggle with, one of the sins I struggled with was academic pride. And one of the ways I reacted against that was pushing away what I thought of as dry and dead academia, because I didn’t see—I saw life in the local church, and I saw spots of life in academia. But like we, like I said about Steve Dempster’s talk just now, he oozes delight in Christ, and if he was my faculty member, I probably would have done your route, and gone right into a PhD. That’s what I want. But I wasn’t seeing that modeled. But just the whole, should I be a professor or pastor, I went into the pastoral road, and after my undergrad, I did an internship at my local church for two years, paid like 30 hours a week, and then I did an MTS, master’s at Tyndale, and…

JD: A master of theological studies.

IV: Yeah. And then I pastored a local church for six years, a solo pastorate, and then just through a series of providences, I went through pastoral burnout as a solo pastor. I saw God’s blessing, saw good ministry, but I think the burnout, there’s a whole mix that you, it’s—how do you unpack it, right? But it was to the point where I resigned, and it was just very, I thought I was going to retire from that church at the end of my career. I had no plans on it being a stepping stone, and… just very difficult. But we went back to our local church that we had gone to after the, the Tim Keller Church was a PCA, and I never became Presbyterian. I’m Baptistic theologically. And so, during my master’s, we went to a church called Grace Fellowship. Paul Martin is the pastor there. And, for lack of a better way of putting it, learned how to be a Baptist. And, and still heard the expository preaching, still heard the same theological influences.

But we went back there after my time solo pastoring. And it was just such a blessing to be shepherded by these, by these godly men. And, I remember going to them one day and saying, really sheepishly, I really have a desire to do a PhD, and Natalie’s, my wife, is on board. And I expected them to rebuke me, and they, all the elders that I went to just said, “We could see it,” and I thought, I thought they were going to call me lazy for wanting to do a PhD, “and we could really see that as a fit for you.” And, I think it’s really important to discern and call the ministry in the context of the local church. And so, that was just such a blessing, and that was a surprise. I didn’t think that’s what the advice I’d get. And, so I just started putting out feelers and seeing what doors God might open, and he opened the door to do the PhD at the University of Toronto, and very thankful. And I, I pastored part-time throughout my PhD studies. So, I preached about, I did a couple interim pastorates, where I preached every week, and then, for four years, it was, 20 Sundays a year, I co-pastored with another. The guy I co-pastored with is the dean of the school where I now teach. And so, that’s the, bit of the highlights you can flesh out, but that’s a bit of my story.

JD: So, as we go back to those early years in pastoral ministry, we’ve got listeners that are in all different types of places, but you faced, you faced that weariness.

IV: Yeah.

JD: That worn, that wornness through serving others, and apparently, at some level, not even getting to fill up yourself. So, you—

IV: Well, there is a filling up of yourself, because Paul says to Timothy, as you put these things before the brothers, you’ll be a faithful steward of Christ, a faithful servant of Christ Jesus, constantly nourished on the word of truth. So, preaching does fill you up. And I was still doing my long walks with Piper and Keller, and just the people that filled me up. And as the Gospel Coalition was emerging and becoming, I was just delighting in this little town I pastored in. But there were certain elements, yeah. It really bothers me when pastors treat professors and authors like they’re somebody. I actually think the opposite. That pastors are on the front lines.

TK: Absolutely.

JD: Yep. Yeah.

IV: And they’re the ones that need support from us. Yeah. And we need to be servants of pastors. And I have so much respect for people who serve full-time as pastors.

JD: That’s beautiful. In my role as a professor, I’ve always told my students, I am, I’m support staff. I’m a mobilizer. So that you can go out to those front lines. And, and even now as I’m engaging in a, in a church plant, I’m feeling the privilege, but also the challenge of entering back more on the front lines and not just equipping others. But it is, it is really a high calling. And, it can wear on families. And so, so what would you, what would you say if, if we’ve got a listener who finds himself in pastoral ministry right now, or it may be a spouse of a weary pastor, having walked that journey a little bit, what, what might you share with them? What would you challenge them? I love what you just said regarding, it’s the Word of God, that, that continual engagement with God’s Word that’s going to fill us up.

IV: Yeah. There’s so much, and there’s so many different situations. And I would say to some, don’t run away from ministry unduly quickly. I’d say to others, how’s your family? Like, how is this situation not week to week or month to month, I mean, big picture affecting your ability to, like the Puritans called the home, the little church, like you’re a pastor of your little church before you’re a pastor of a local church. So how is your ability to shepherd and care for your family this last year? And if the answer is almost nothing, well, maybe that, that can be an indicator to what can change. There are so many situations. I would rather not give advice like stay or go and more give advice: Do you have someone that you look up to that’s pouring into you? And if the answer is no, maybe that’ll be part of your decision to stay or go, but, and do you have people in the congregation who are elders who actually know the inside? Because you can’t tell a friend in the church who’s not an elder everything that’s hurting your soul right now, but an elder you can. So is there an elder with you that you trust that you can walk this journey with? That might be completely different than a situation where, you don’t. So anyway, those are some things that come to mind. Feel free to probe more, but…

JD: So you move from pastoral ministry into school again. Yeah. And at what point had you gotten married to Natalie?

IV: We got married in 2004, so.

JD: Okay, so you, like, you’re married at this time?

IV: We got married like a month after I graduated from my master’s.

JD: Okay. And so I’ll, yeah. So you’re in this journey now heading toward having a sense of academic ministry as a potential for the future.

IV: Yeah.

JD: So what was it like to go back to school at that point in your life? And what would you, for those that are in, for those listeners that are in the midst of that journey as a married couple, did you have any of your children yet?

IV: Both.

JD: Okay, so heading through doctoral studies with children and wanting your family not to wither, not to have a wife who’s frustrated that you’re engaged in academic ministry training, but who’s supportive. So how did you maybe handle things differently or what would you, what was, as you reflect on that, how did you maintain what you needed to do to get all the way to the end?

IV: Okay. Well, the first thing is my wife, my wife, Natalie, I always say her name should be on the diploma. We’re a team. And we made the decision together to do this.

JD: She got her PhT. Yeah. Putting Hubby Through.

IV: Yeah, that’s, that’s probably right. She didn’t write a word of the dissertation, I promise, but she did win, when she, she has an MDiv and when she graduated, she won the theology award. So I’ll brag on my wife. I delight in that. And she used the money that she got to buy a glider for our firstborn for nursing. And so that was just wonderful back then.

But yeah, so Natalie and I were together. And we decided we had, we had just bought a home and we decided to sell our home and to use the down payment as seed money for the PhD, which is a special woman who would, who would do that. And we, we really decided, we were thinking radical risk for the glory of God, but not radical risk that’s foolhardy or uncalculated, blind. We went to the elders of our church and they have, they encouraged this, “if your wife’s on board.” And but we don’t know how God’s going to provide, we, but we’re willing to take a step and a step. And the other thing, the Lord opened the door for me to do the PhD and we had the seed money and Natalie and I decided every year we’ll check in and say, how has, how is this on our finances? How is this on our family? And every year we came by and say, that was hard, but it was doable. And then before the last year it was, that was too much. And we, we made the decision at that point, okay, I can pull out or we can just grit our teeth and do one more year of this and be done.

TK: And did you come close at all the same that I, I can pull out? Like did, did that—

IV: it was on the table as an option because I’m a husband and father first. And there was a lot of plates—like I was pastoring part-time and you know what it’s like as an adult and my wife was a full-time homeschooling mom. And we just said that was so much. We felt like we were too busy. One of the mistakes I made: I should have slowed down and I just wanted to press through and get done so I could get a job. And, but we decided together, let’s keep going for another year and then we have a PhD. And so we did, but it was a decision again, we made together and, yeah, so that’s, that’s kind of how we worked it. I don’t, I don’t know what else to say, but, yeah.

JD: So you graduate and how soon after, or maybe even before graduation, when did you get the job at heritage? Yeah, God opened the door. I taught a couple of courses at Tyndale where I did my undergrad and my master’s, in Toronto. I did two courses there during the PhD. And then near the end of the PhD, my co-pastor was the dean at heritage and still is. And he asked me to teach a course. And I said, no. I said, I’ve got too much on and there’s not going to be a job there for me. And I’m just not going to try to get another line on my CV. I want to finish this degree so I can get a full-time job. But what he knew and I didn’t is the Old Testament professor at heritage was on his way, stepping out. And so I had said no. And then a week later he shared this news and said, “I really encourage you to take this.” So the church allowed me to take a leave of absence and that allowed me, and I taught a very similar course before, so it wasn’t a ton of extra prep. So I was able to replace church with school and teach an adjunct course during the PhD. And then I graduated and they had me teach three adjunct courses that year while I pastored.

TK: can you, can you guys explain what adjunct means? Cause I think a lot of people wouldn’t know what that is.

IV: Yeah. Just teaching, not being a core employee of the school, but being hired to teach like a contract to teach one course or however many courses. You get paid per course instead of a salary. So, and the church kept me on to pastor while I did the three courses throughout that year.

JD: And what’s your, as a prof, you’re now how many years into teaching?

IV: Now?

JD: Yes.

IV: I’m in my seventh year full time. So I did the three courses that one year and then I got hired full time the next year.

JD: So seven years in, what is your heart as a prof? What is your, your desire when you enter into that classroom? What are you wanting to engage in? What are you wanting to see happen in the lives of your students?

IV: I want my, I want to give my students a framework to understand the Scriptures and see their interconnectedness, like biblical theology, and to see Christ as the focal point of the Scriptures. Like everything leads into Christ and just gospel centered hermeneutics. And I want my students to be as excited about Christ or more so even than I am. And so it’s my calling to, to know Christ and to delight in him, to go deep in him and have that overflow in the classroom. And especially as a seminary professor, like I’m preparing pastors. And so it’s just such a joy and people coming into the course, people often aren’t taught the Old Testament well. And so when they start to see how the progression of the storyline and how it all fits together and culminates in Christ and points to Christ and they love it. And I want them also to see preaching the gospel in every sermon, whether we’re in Genesis or Leviticus or Revelation or the Gospels is not an option. It’s essential. Like, so those are a couple of things.

And also the languages. I think Lance and I were talking earlier about those rollerblades with Piper discipling me through tapes, which dates me. But the Bethlehem conference for pastors, the biographical messages he did every year. I probably listened to each of those 6, 8, 10, 12 times, depending on which one. But one of the things that was modeled in those biographical messages was the importance of the biblical languages. Like Martin Luther, crediting the return to learning biblical languages with the—the Reformation could happen because of the biblical languages and the precision that comes. So one of my jobs, I have, half the courses I teach are Hebrew. And so just, it’s my job to, to get, to show students how exciting it is to read God’s Word from the original.

TK: What would you say to somebody who would—because I think if, if somebody, when you look at it, you look at it and say, I could never do that. And I would imagine almost everybody has that thought. What, what do you say to students when they kind of have that thought?

IV: I say, I say, I read one book in high school. That’s what I say. And, do you know your phone number? Okay, well then you can memorize something. I like to break it up into increments though. I tell my Hebrew students, you need—Hebrew is not more important than your other courses, but Hebrew is like the needy child. You don’t love the needy child more, but the needy child needs a bit more of you. And so you need to set aside eight to 10 hours a week, spread over six days a week. And just that immersion. And then you need to sleep well because sleep and memory go together. And I coach them a little bit on that. And I say, if you can do eight to 10 hours a week, hopefully of your most alert times, throughout that week, over six days, you can do it.

JD: Yeah, that’s right.

IV: And I try to just break it down like that. And, and then just little tricks and tools like the Crossway Reader’s Hebrew Old Testament. It’s just so helpful because one of the biggest impediments to language learning is vocabulary. When it’s a dead language like this, it’s not spoken anymore. If you go to Jerusalem, we’re not speaking biblical Hebrew. It’s a, think of how different English is today from the King James in 1611. And that’s only 400 years ago. Now think about Moses writing, you know, 3,500 years ago or 3,400 years ago. That’s different Hebrew now. And so that reader’s Hebrew Old Testament is so helpful because it helps you with vocabulary a little. Some of the less common words are footnoted. And so it helps—

TK: you don’t have to look up every, you don’t have to look up everything,

IV: But I use it every day, in personally, in my, so anyway.

LK: So now seven years into academic ministry, what does service to the church look like for you?

IV: Oh, great question. I think about that a lot because one of the tricks in any sort of ministry is, what to say no to. Opportunities come and just getting to know myself. But, a couple of years ago during COVID, I just hit a point in my teaching where my core preps were done and you’re always growing as a professor, but I was able to take that creative energy and put it into some writing. And I really held my, like with a loose hand, an open hand before the Lord and I was praying, I desire to have a writing ministry, but your will be done. I don’t know what you’ll have. And I started writing, and COVID in Canada was two years of lockdown and one of the silver linings for this introverted guy who’s been wanting to write. I was able to write two books during that time and, so I really try to prioritize writing right now as one of the ministries and the ways I serve the ways I serve the church and try to guard time for writing and not fill my time with other things. So, and then I lead a small group at my local church. We meet bi-weekly and we’ve really bonded, supporting each other, shepherding each other, praying for one another, applying the sermon to life and, just active members at a local church. I teach a course once in a while at church, just for lay people. And I was telling you guys, the seminary I teach at has just freshly, struck up a partnership with my local church. And we’re going to start teaching seminary courses on site at Hope Bible Church in Oakville, where we are members, my wife and I are members. So those, I’ve, I’ve been part of the liaison between the two, kind of planning that. So those are some of the things.

And I would say, too, just trying to encourage my pastors and tell them how much I appreciate them and support them in any way. And if they ask, sometimes they’ll ask, what’s a good book to read? And I say, read Steve Dempster, Dominion and Dynasty. That’s kind of my pat answer.

JD: This is good. Yeah.

TK: Jason, can, why did you, so Lance is sitting here. He’s got his dissertation coming up. And he’s asked you to serve as his first reader, his doctoral father. Why, why would you say Ian would be a good choice? For you, why would Ian be a good fit for Lance?

JD: Oh, there’s many reasons why I would want to partner with Ian in order to serve Lance through this process. First, Ian is a Psalms scholar. He wrote his dissertation on it. He’s recently one of the two books that he mentioned. And both of these books are so accessible for all of our listeners. And so why don’t you just give us the two titles of those two books so that people could find them. But one of them is on the Psalms, and the other is an introduction to Moses’ five-part book, the Torah, the Law.

IV: Yeah.

JD: And so Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy, and, and step-by-step, how they point to Jesus. And so the, the titles of these two books.

IV: Yeah, so I’ll say first: the dissertation, not accessible.

JD: Yeah, that’s different. That’s a different book.

JD: That’s by definition.

IV: That’s a different book. So if you go on Amazon, the more expensive one, don’t get that one. Right. If you go on that’s a hundred bucks, don’t get that. But the more recent ones, the Pentateuch one is called The Dawning of Redemption: The Story of the Pentateuch and the Hope of the Gospel. And so I just, I walked through, I walked through the five books of Moses, and each chapter ends with looking forward to Christ. And, and so Creation, the Theater of Redemption, Eden, the Promise of Redemption, Genealogy, the Lineage of Redemption. And I have a bunch of—

TK: And could a, could a pastor or, church member who didn’t know Hebrew access these, read these?

IV: There’s no Hebrew in it. Okay. So the target readership there is thoughtful Christians who have never been to seminary. Love it. And, hopefully useful in the seminary classroom as well, but written so someone who’s thoughtful, like, read more than one book in high school, maybe. But someone who’s a little bit conversant with the Scriptures from being in a healthy local church would be able to access. And there’s discussion questions for small groups to digest this stuff together.

And then the second book is called Treasuring the Psalms, How to Read the Songs that Shape the Soul of the Church. And, yeah. So, and that’s more primarily an accessible seminary Bible college textbook or undergrad textbook, but hopefully accessible for thoughtful Christians who have never been to seminary.

JD: So, Ian is giving so much of his life to the works related to David. Like, he’s getting ready to write a big commentary on 1 and 2 Samuel.

IV: Yeah.

JD: And he’s also already given so much of his time to studying the Psalter. He’s aware of what others are saying, other scholars are saying. And so, I thought it would be really good to have someone of his caliber along with someone with his heart. A heart for Jesus. An Old Testament scholar that treasures Christ like I know Lance does and like I know Lance wants to write in a way that’s going to glorify Christ and his purposes in Scripture. And even though we’re working in a new sphere like Chronicles, I thought that Ian would be a great choice to partner side by side so that we, the two of us, will be able to serve Lance to accomplish his book on the use of Psalms in this big book of Chronicles.

TK: Lance, you in with these guys?

LK: I’m all in.

TK: All right. All right. Well, Lance, can you pray for our brother before we close this out?

LK: I’d love to. Father, thank you for this time to hear from Dr. Valancourt and the story that you have woven for him. The ways that the church has been a source of blessing for him and now in the academy you are using him to serve the church. I pray you would continue to do so. Give him joy in his writing and in his service in such a way that the church is equipped, that pastors are equipped, and that you are glorified and enjoyed forever. Amen.

IV: Amen.                        

TK: Thanks for joining us.

IV: Thank you so much. Joy to be with you guys.

JY: Thank you for joining us for GearTalk. We’ve included links in the show notes to Ian Valancourt’s books. Among his recent works, you’ll find a terrific introduction to the Pentateuch and a very helpful introduction to the Psalms. Both of these works are highly readable. While Dr. Valancourt’s perspective on Christ’s place in the Psalms differs in places from the perspective we’ve shared on GearTalk, we heartily recommend Ian’s work on the Psalms and believe it will add to your love of Christ and understanding of the Psalms. You will be blessed. For resources related to biblical theology, visit handstotheplow.org and jasonderouchie.com.